What to do about nice but misguided people

[Nokoolaidherethanks]

Just seen a fb post from someone I'm not super close friends with but who I've always liked a lot in my dealings with her. She seems like a really lovely person and I've always got on well with her. She's posted Rishi Sunak's comment about being not being bullied into believing that people can be any sex they want. And she says that by saying this he's bullying "the most vulnerable members of society". FFS.

I don't know her well enough to comment. But would love to ask her what she thinks about rapists who conveniently transition in prison or before trial, or women losing out on sporting records to men, or how she'd feel if her daughter was exposed to a penis in a "female" changing room.

Do you ever challenge people like this?

I asked someone about sport and prisons. She said it was “problematic” but continues to post all the be nice stuff 🤷🏼‍♀️

Ah, "problematic".

The favourite word of people who have very strong, fixed opinions that they can neither defend nor explain, even to themselves.

Not good enough. Try again.

I think it can also be a holding statement. I'm currently having a marathon-like conversation with a(n extended) family member who I am very close to.

She's incredibly TWAW and has several friends and wider acquaintances who have either transitioned (all FtM) or have children who are trans-identified (both FtM and MtF). There seems to be quite a lot of this going on in her friendship group and/or local area.

She's aware of my daughter's story and is someone that I've been talking to about it during most stages. She's been very balanced and has agreed with me that a purely affirmative approach isn't right for her at all when all roads seem to point to the distress associated with puberty and autism (experience change and sensory issues of breast development and periods as trauma). However she's still very TWAW - nobody should question this, "trans people are who they say they are" etc.

In our most recent conversation, she said that she didn't agree with transwomen being in women's sports but that she couldn't really say this to some of her friends because they would get angry with her that she wasn't supportive of trans people.

She really is one of the loveliest and kindest people I know. If I were to ask her right now what her views were (I won't, but we're going to meet up soon for a proper long chat about it all - mostly about what I'm doing as part of my IRL "activism" to support girls like my daughter), I'm sure she would say it's "problematic".

IMO it's a statement which covers a wide range of views that are book-ended with a) I don't have any inclination to think about this to b) I'm very confused about what I think and I need some space.

It's a Be Kind version of No Debate. I think more people who say it will get drawn towards talking and debating more as the harms being done by gender identity belief get more sunlight pouring in.

You won't get very far in persuading people of the validity of your arguments, if that's the tack you take.

I've thought about the issue quite a lot. While I think it is inhumane and cruel to women to open the doors of women's corrective facilities to trans women prisoners, I also think it would be inhumane and cruel to trans women prisoners to house them in men's facilities. They would be very much at risk.

It's a complex issue and definitely problematic. I don't have a solution - do you?

Gang members are vulnerable in prisons with rival gang members in, so are paedos, there are racists in prison and men of all colours, homphobes and gay men, they house them all. It's their LITERAL job.
They are an issue for the Mens Prison system which is much better funded than the Womens Prison system and has the necessary staff with the necessary training to deal with violent men.
If you don't want to be in prison there are ways of avoiding it.
You either sympathise with all criminals at risk in the prison system (which includes Women) or you're paying lip service to the current trendy group.

Honestly the men's estate is far far worse funded than the women's estate in prison.

But yes there are loads of very very vulnerable people in prison and the prison system is already well aware of this, one group is not The Most Vulnerable.

But yes there are loads of very very vulnerable people in prison and the prison system is already well aware of this, one group is not The Most Vulnerable

That doesn't stop me worrying about them.

Sex offenders, particularly child sex offenders, are at a very high level of risk in the male prison estate. They are held separately from other prisoners for their own safety. The same could be done for trans prisoners.

Problematic is a sly weasel word. The expression "this is problematic" sounds like "this is a problem which needs to be solved" but actually means "I have a problem with this and I want it to go away".

Apparently the Mens estate is now full. It's a shambles.

This is where it will get interesting if (when 🤦‍♀️) Labour get in to government. Jess Phillips is vocally tweeting that this is unacceptable.
Her previous position would presumably have been to house transwomen in the women's estate. Now that she's realised the difference between sex and gender (identity belief), with specific reference to the impact its conflation has on women's safety (her speech in the June parliamentary debate was fab.. and quite a surprise), I think she's going to be quite a force to be reckoned with on this one.
Keir Starmer will either have to listen to her or move her aside. She took part in the fringe women's conference that wasn't allowed to be at the main Labour conference. She doesn't seem to be backing down on this one and, even non-Jess fans can hopefully agree, she has quite a track record of getting herself heard and getting results.

It's only problematic if you agree it is cruel and inhumane to house trans women with other male prisoners.

Can you explain why you think this?

As someone mentioned, one thing to try is having separate sections for trans women.

Now can people just self identify to get in there?

Probably not, as you need to protect against people that may be violent or predatory.

Well, let's see. This is from CNN.com in 2021:

A 2007 study from the University of California, Irvine, found that incarcerated transgender people were 13 times more likely to be sexually assaulted than a random sample of incarcerated men. Fifty-nine percent of transgender prisoners reported having been sexually assaulted within a California correctional facility compared to just 4.4% of the incarcerated population as a whole.

A 2019 meta-study published in the Intl Journal of Transgenderism found this result:

Despite these recent acknowledgements, research suggests that prisoners who transgress heteronormative sex, sexuality and gender boundaries are at higher risk of experiencing bullying, violence, harassment, coercion, and sexual assault compared to other prisoners (Atabay, 2009; Australian Human Rights Commission, 2015; Blight, 2000; Carr et al., 2016; Dunn, 2013; Gatherer et al., 2014; Grant et al., 2011; Jenness & Fenstermaker, 2014; Jenness, Maxson, Matsuda, & Sumner, 2007a; Jenness et al., 2007b; Meyer et al., 2017; National LGBTI Health Alliance, 2012; UNAIDS, 2014; White Hughto et al., 2018; Wilson et al., 2017). For example, lesbian, gay, and bisexual prisoners are more likely to experience sexual assault than their heterosexual counterparts (from other inmates), and the likelihood is even greater for transgender women inmates (Beck, Berzofsky, Caspar, & Krebs, 2013; Blight, 2000; Clark et al., 2017; Carr et al., 2016; Jenness et al., 2007b; Oparah, 2012; von Dresner, Underwood, Suarez, & Franklin, 2013; White Hughto et al., 2018; Wilson et al., 2017).

All those studies were linked to in the footnotes, I think; I don't have time to click on them all.

@Squiblet You don't need the brains of an archbishop to realise that transwomen would be at risk if incarcerated with the general male prison population. The solution is not to increase the risk to women prisoners but to provide better protection to trans prisoners in the male estate.

@JanesLittleGirl Agreed! Or a third space - but that would demand considerable resources.

Lots of male prisoners are vulnerable.

No other male prisoners are allowed to serve their sentences in women's prisons just because that's what they want.

The other thing to point out is that some transgender prisoners aren't just vulnerable because they are trans but because they have other issues such as serious mental illness or drug dependency.

Stats from the US also can't be directly compared to the UK as the systems are very different.

I also think it would be inhumane and cruel to trans women prisoners to house them in men's facilities. They would be very much at risk.

Like other vulnerable men, about which there is no question which sex facility they are housed in.

No other male prisoners are allowed to serve their sentences in women's prisons just because that's what they want.

Agreed! I've already said it would compromise women's safety if that were the case. I don't believe women's prisons should be open to trans women.

The question then becomes, where should trans people be incarcerated so as not to violate their basic right to safety? I also agree with you that lots of male prisoners are vulnerable, but that's tangential to the issue.

It's not "tangential to the issue" at all. They are vulnerable male prisoners like any others.

Police officers who go to prison are at risk from the other male prisoners but I wouldn’t cry too much for Wayne Couzens. Would you?

Goodness no, ZERO tears for Wayne Couzens!

Are you saying that makes me a hypocrite? Because caring about the welfare of one group doesn't make you obligated, by the rules of logic, to care about them all. This is an emotive issue and you can't "gotcha" people out of caring about what they care about.

I'm overplaying my own level of caring here, because I'm representing the "Nice But Misguided" woman of the title. In fact I don't devote much time to worrying about trans people in prison - it must be a small population. But what I'm trying to express is that there are lots of people who want to see women's rights protected, but not at the expense of trans people's identical rights.

Imo, everyone should be protected from violence in prison.

If you want more severe punishments, fine, but the way to do it isn't to let people be victimised in prison. Prisons should be imposed order, not letting people be animals.

No, I don’t think you’re a hypocrite- I think people who break their hearts over transwomen in prison are forgetting or not realising how many vulnerable men are in prison as well.

I don’t believe Isla Bryson would be at greater risk in a male prison than a young man with learning disabilities, especially one who may have given evidence against gang members, drug dealers or career criminals.

It’s the swallowing of “these are the most vulnerable” without wondering who else in prison is vulnerable that bothers me. Elderly men with physical disabilities? Anyone with mental health disorders? All at risk. None being moved to women’s prisons. Would you support a campaign for any of these men to be housed in with women? Is their safety of less importance than a man who says he is a woman? What’s the difference?

Prisons need to be safer all round- you can only care about one group of men if you want but it doesn’t help the wider issue.

I just don't understand the claim really> There are any number of vulnerable male prisoners. The prison system has procedures for dealing with them. Why would gender identity be treated differently than any other vulnerability by making use of the same systems that already exist?

(I do realize that these systems are imperfect and may need changing, but surely that too applies to all men who are using them?)