Page 4 | What to do about nice but misguided people

Nokoolaidherethanks · 2023-10-08T20:14:03+00:00

Just seen a fb post from someone I'm not super close friends with but who I've always liked a lot in my dealings with her. She seems like a really lovely person and I've always got on well with her. She's posted Rishi Sunak's comment about being not being bullied into believing that people can be any sex they want. And she says that by saying this he's bullying "the most vulnerable members of society". FFS. I don't know her well enough to comment. But would love to ask her what she thinks about rapists who conveniently transition in prison or before trial, or women losing out on sporting records to men, or how she'd feel if her daughter was exposed to a penis in a "female" changing room. Do you ever challenge people like this?

Cappuccinfortwo · 15/10/2023 14:29

I have spoken to people like this in real life. One said "oh I'm not really interested in sports" when I told her about a tw at my daughter's athletics club - so I guess she's not empathetic at all! Another one said that it should be possible to differentiate between "real" and "fake" tw prisoners but refused to think about this in detail. Tbh, I don't think a lot of people care at all. They certainly don't want to have to examine the topic deeply.

MargotBamborough · 15/10/2023 14:47

Squiblet · 14/10/2023 14:12

No other male prisoners are allowed to serve their sentences in women's prisons just because that's what they want.

Agreed! I've already said it would compromise women's safety if that were the case. I don't believe women's prisons should be open to trans women.

The question then becomes, where should trans people be incarcerated so as not to violate their basic right to safety? I also agree with you that lots of male prisoners are vulnerable, but that's tangential to the issue.

Is it though?

About 20 years ago a boy named Zahid Mubarak who was serving a 3 month sentence in Feltham Young Offenders' institution for petty crime. The night before he was due to be released he was housed in a cell with a neo Nazi who had previously been heard threatening to kill him, and who beat him to death.

If I were his mother I would want to know why vulnerable male prisoners who identify as women are deemed worthy of extra protection when vulnerable male prisoners like my son aren't.

MargotBamborough · 15/10/2023 14:50

Squiblet · 14/10/2023 14:43

Goodness no, ZERO tears for Wayne Couzens!

Are you saying that makes me a hypocrite? Because caring about the welfare of one group doesn't make you obligated, by the rules of logic, to care about them all. This is an emotive issue and you can't "gotcha" people out of caring about what they care about.

I'm overplaying my own level of caring here, because I'm representing the "Nice But Misguided" woman of the title. In fact I don't devote much time to worrying about trans people in prison - it must be a small population. But what I'm trying to express is that there are lots of people who want to see women's rights protected, but not at the expense of trans people's identical rights.

I have to admit that at this stage I care more about women's rights than I do about trans people's rights, precisely because I know how many loud and powerful voices there are lobbying for trans people's rights who explicitly don't want women to have the rights they think trans people should have.

Squiblet · 15/10/2023 15:34

MargotBamborough · 15/10/2023 14:50

I have to admit that at this stage I care more about women's rights than I do about trans people's rights, precisely because I know how many loud and powerful voices there are lobbying for trans people's rights who explicitly don't want women to have the rights they think trans people should have.

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That's understandable, and I'm glad there are people standing up for women's rights. It's so important.

What concerns me is that the GC movement, as expressed on here, sometimes acts against its own interests (in terms of winning over the Nice But Misguided or NBM) by expressing disdain for trans rights. Most of us NBMs want both women and TP to be safe and accommodated. And if that means we want the moon on a stick - well, yes, unfortunately.

Your story about Zahid Mubarak is horrific - and so sad. Such a thing should never have happened. But it makes me think that TW would be even less safe in jail than I thought. The PP above who said the whole system is rotten was certainly right.

MargotBamborough · 15/10/2023 19:09

Squiblet · 15/10/2023 15:34

That's understandable, and I'm glad there are people standing up for women's rights. It's so important.

What concerns me is that the GC movement, as expressed on here, sometimes acts against its own interests (in terms of winning over the Nice But Misguided or NBM) by expressing disdain for trans rights. Most of us NBMs want both women and TP to be safe and accommodated. And if that means we want the moon on a stick - well, yes, unfortunately.

Your story about Zahid Mubarak is horrific - and so sad. Such a thing should never have happened. But it makes me think that TW would be even less safe in jail than I thought. The PP above who said the whole system is rotten was certainly right.

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Prisons are definitely unsafe places, that's for sure. But I think that they need to be made safer places in general, not just for a particular class of prisoners who have self identified into a vulnerable category. Transgender male prisoners could choose to present as men in order to be safer in prison. (Better still, they could choose not to commit serious crimes in the first place.) Identifying as white was clearly not an option for Zahid Mubarek.

I think for me the big problem with the "trans rights" movement is that they chose to set themselves up in opposition to women's rights. They chose to seek rights which, if granted, would clearly have a negative effect on women, a class of people who are yet to secure true equality for themselves. And now when women speak out they claim that speaking out is bigotry.

It didn't have to be this way. They could have campaigned for their own rights on a "separate but equal" basis, but they chose not to.

That's why I see "pro trans" and I think "anti women".

If being pro women makes me anti trans, well, so be it, I guess. I didn't make the rules but I will take the side of women every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

ApocalipstickNow · 15/10/2023 19:22

Separate trans wings makes sense- yes it takes extra resources but at the moment women in women’s prison are being used as cheap resources and they are put at risk.

The kindness doesn’t have to extend to women or other male prisoners, but it’s definitely singling one group out for treatment that would be beneficial to others but is denied to them.

This is why fair is more important than kind as far as I’m concerned.

PonyPatter44 · 15/10/2023 20:16

The prison service tried having a wing specifically for transwomen. It was closed down for lack of interest- TW prisoners who wanted out of the male estate didn't want to be with other TWs, they wanted to be with women.

There are special wings for vulnerable prisoners, there are entire jails for sex offenders. The prison service has the facility to keep people safe. We DID learn from the death of Zahid Mubarak.

MargotBamborough · 15/10/2023 20:35

PonyPatter44 · 15/10/2023 20:16

The prison service tried having a wing specifically for transwomen. It was closed down for lack of interest- TW prisoners who wanted out of the male estate didn't want to be with other TWs, they wanted to be with women.

There are special wings for vulnerable prisoners, there are entire jails for sex offenders. The prison service has the facility to keep people safe. We DID learn from the death of Zahid Mubarak.

Who gives a fuck what they want?

They could try not committing crimes, maybe?

PonyPatter44 · 15/10/2023 20:50

MargotBamborough · 15/10/2023 20:35

Who gives a fuck what they want?

They could try not committing crimes, maybe?

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Arguably you could say that about every prisoner in the entire country. TW prisoners are no longer housed in the female estate- the policy refers to violent and sexual offenders, which tbh is the vast majority, but even nonviolent TW are now housed in the male estate.

The resources thrown at TW prisoners would be far better used to deal with the number of autistic men with severe communication difficulties who end up in prison.

JanesLittleGirl · 15/10/2023 21:40

PonyPatter44 · 15/10/2023 20:16

The prison service tried having a wing specifically for transwomen. It was closed down for lack of interest- TW prisoners who wanted out of the male estate didn't want to be with other TWs, they wanted to be with women.

There are special wings for vulnerable prisoners, there are entire jails for sex offenders. The prison service has the facility to keep people safe. We DID learn from the death of Zahid Mubarak.

Wait! What! So transwomen rejected third spaces that were exclusively for their safety?

Fuck third space toilets. Go and piss with the other men.

MargotBamborough · 15/10/2023 21:50

JanesLittleGirl · 15/10/2023 21:40

Wait! What! So transwomen rejected third spaces that were exclusively for their safety?

Fuck third space toilets. Go and piss with the other men.

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It's almost as if it actually has fuck all to do with safety, isn't it?

BlessedKali · 16/10/2023 00:04

gidabo · 11/10/2023 10:41

@BonfireLady , you're right when you say, "The belief isn't the issue."

What does seem to be the issue is more the seeing of belief in gender identity as what it is: a belief in just the same way (and with the same status) as other beliefs such as belief in ghosts, gods, angels, paranormal auras, the healing powers of crystals, and so on.

We don't allow believers in angels or auras special access to children in our schools (although we do allow such believers to set up their own schools, given reasonable safeguards). Nor do we allow such beliefs to influence our laws or our wider society (although, again, we don't stand in the way of such believers getting together to express their beliefs to one another and so on). We don't sneer at people who believe things we don't (at least in public). We treat people politely, however daft we may think them.

People believe all sorts of different things. We rub along. You want to believe you have a guardian angel? Fine. You want to believe you have a gender identity? Fine, again. Just don't expect the rest of us to behave in line with your beliefs ... and don't expect our schools to teach your beliefs as though they are fact, or our laws to be based on your beliefs.

We escaped societally-mandated religion some time ago. We should not allow our society now to mandate this new gender-identity belief.

"Nice but misguided" people? Smile, OP, and accept them as they are. Keep the kid gloves on. But if they start to support the imposition of beliefs such as in god or gender identity or whatever on us or our children, we need to take the gloves off, as appropriate.

You have absolutely nailed something on the head there...I'm having a mini - epiphany... thank you. x

Cappuccinfortwo · 16/10/2023 07:27

I think for me the big problem with the "trans rights" movement is that they chose to set themselves up in opposition to women's rights. They chose to seek rights which, if granted, would clearly have a negative effect on women, a class of people who are yet to secure true equality for themselves. And now when women speak out they claim that speaking out is bigotry.
Very true. Many women, including me, would have happily campaigned for trans rights until we were told that we also had to prioritize them over our own. No.

Squiblet · 16/10/2023 09:01

The prison service tried having a wing specifically for transwomen. It was closed down for lack of interest- TW prisoners who wanted out of the male estate didn't want to be with other TWs, they wanted to be with women.

Do you have a link to this @PonyPatter44 ? I'd like to know more.