No man admits to rape Caitlin Moran in The Times

[IcakethereforeIam]

Depressing but thought provoking. It's an archive link. I think there have been interviews with admitted rapists but there is a massive gap. It's great and laudable to want to improve conviction rates and better support victims but prevention is better than cure. The problem is most rapists go unpunished and I can't see a #yeahme getting much engagement, except perhaps as a wank bank.

https://archive.ph/Vp9og

I think that the issue is to some degree that many men do not admit it to themselves. They don’t view their own behaviour as rape or sexual assault. They self identify as one of the good guys.

Certainly, that has been my experience of men who have raped me.

Exactly as @incomingtraffic says, hence the weird perception of 'real' rape as strangers, dark alleys, violence etc. Most rapists have a different MO, one they can posit as not a crime.

And, of course, when even the convicted, jailed rapists insist they’re not guilty, we create the world observable on social media every time a new, high-profile rape case hits the headlines. By and large, women online believe the allegations. Women know rapists, because they have been raped.

But men — #notallmen, but a noticeable cohort — do not know rapists, because they have not been raped and no man they know has ever admitted to it. To them, rapists are as distant, rare and unseen as albatrosses or Sunda Island tigers. And this is reflected in their tweets: “Where’s the evidence?” “Another female whispering campaign.” “Lies.”

I'm going to disagree. We've seen extracts of conversations from Police WhatsApp groups where the men on it banter about corrective rape (not how they phrase it). Colleagues knew the reality of Sarah Everard's killer (nickname, The Rapist) and engaged in discussion about his activities.

Obligatory #NAMALT and some men know and praise each other for it.

I should have anticipated that there would be posts from women like @IncomingTraffic I'm sorry . I feel I've been thoughtless.

There is, there has always been, an epidemic of sexual violence against women and children. Our lives are blighted by the fear and the reality of it. I can only assume that's exactly how society wants it to be.

No need to be sorry.

It simply is the case that unless men recognise their own behaviour as rape/sexual assault, nothing will change. There will be no one who admits to being a rapist until men in general recognise it in their own behaviour.

Here’s a share token that you can replace the archive link in your OP with.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b083cebe-63b0-4129-b09c-84d754948e28?shareToken=edf4774f7f027a10cfb83b3ee0b0e414

There is a book, South of Forgiveness, Co written by a rape survivor and the rapist. It’s an amazing read.

@meringue33 you reminded me of something, so I went a-googling. This article is by the people who wrote the book. It's harrowing and surreal. It could be quite triggering too, so be careful

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/mar/05/can-i-forgive-man-who-raped-me-thordis-trust-elva-thomas-stranger-south-of-forgiveness-extract

This guy can talk about it because he's safe from legal repercussions. I don't know if he knew that when he came forward with his mea culpa.

I'm not surprised. A female friend works with sex offenders in a prison setting and has often said that they almost all view themselves as innocent men who've been convicted in error.
The man who was convicted of sex with an underage girl="she told me that she was 18".
The man who was convicted of rape=" it was a put up job after he and his partner had a falling out".
I don't ever recall her saying that one of them had admitted what he'd done.🙄

I was struck by her naivety in saying she was 100per cent certain that none of the men she knew would rape.

Oh yeah. This sentence really let down the whole article

I think that the issue is to some degree that many men do not admit it to themselves. They don’t view their own behaviour as rape or sexual assault. They self identify as one of the good guys

Absolutely this. This is absolutely my experience. He was furious when I told him he was not one of the good guys. Absolutely furious.

Yeah, kinda made me wonder if she put that in just to appease her male mates, ‘not you! I’m not talking about you! Don’t kick me out of your gang!’

The reality is that ‘none of the men I know would be rapists’ is exactly the same logic men apply to themselves.

Rapists are dreadful bogeymen. She’d never associate with men like that.

Meanwhile, plenty of ‘nice’ men respond to their partner’s ‘no’ by nagging and harassing her til she acquiesces. Or they sulk and punish their partner’s for daring to not be sexually available when convenient to him so she learns not to say no. And so on.

They’re not rapists though. Just men with normal sexual needs. Don’t you know?

Yes. Absolute fury and denial. Total gaslighting.

Added to the fact that you know no one else will believe you because… well… he’s not a rapist. They wouldn’t associate with someone like that. So you must be lying.

Because women are just like that. 😩

Yes, once again CM is let down by her lack of formal education - she personalises everything and struggles to take an objective view on any issue. Two seconds looking at the stats would tell her that she does know many rapists - as do we all, unfortunately.

I don't believe that all men are rapists. I do think that many more men than we would like to believe will take the opportunity to rape, if it presents itself.

Sorry - just to be clear - when I say an opportunity present itself, I mean that literally - a set of circumstances that make it easy for men to get away with rape, both legally and socially. I don't mean that choices or behaviour by victims/survivors facilitate rape.

I think it’s really that the opinion piece is only a half formed thought. She needed to play it through to the end and recognise that she definitely does know - and like - rapists.

She believes the women that they’ve been raped and is wondering where the men are. But the issue is that she’s not able to recognise them.

Because few people are. They’re not some special category of identifiable reprobate. It’s ordinary, ‘nice’ men. Men you work with. Men you are friends with. Men in your families. Men you like. Men you love.

And men - all men - need to do the reflecting about why there’s such a widespread sense of male entitlement to women’s bodies that the behaviour of men who rape and assault women does not register. Why women can’t be expected to tell the difference between a nice guy and a rapist - how is anyone supposed to tell?

That sentence was also odd because in the article she says men other rapists as people who are far away and over there, some distant bogeymen. And then she does exactly the same herself. She’s obviously very emotionally, or perhaps socially, invested in thinking the men she knows cannot be like that.

to add to that, all men need to ask themselves if they would recognise it if their own behaviour crossed the line.
Would the recognise it as rape?

I suspect far too few of them would.

Great post. Especially this:

She needed to play it through to the end and recognise that she definitely does know - and like - rapists.

The problem for Moran is that she's of a "Feminist Lite" kind of category. She's not really serious or steeped in it enough. She's done well out of it. But she doesn't really know it. You don't get the impression it's in her bones. If it was, she'd play it to the end, as expressed so well here.

" I would stake my life on all the men I know being incapable of it "
So fucking naive. I have time for this woman.

• I have NO time for this woman , that should read!

Yup. She's a complete coward and not a true feminist.

Agree that sentence stands out like a sore thumb.

She tries hard but she’s flogging a point we already knew - many women get raped and many men are rapists - and doing it from a dumbass perspective.

Her writing is tired to say the least.