Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Would you vote Tory if Kemi Badenoch was Tory the party leader and the election was tomorrow?

768 replies

lechiffre55 · 03/10/2023 13:39

Just curious to see what the answers here might be.
Would you vote Tory if Kemi Badenoch was the Tory party leader and the election was tomorrow?
Feel free to answer any way you like, and I don't care about derailing. The question is quite tongue in cheek, don't take it too seriously, and have fun with it if you want, rant if you want. I'm trying to get a picture of the MN mood.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Asleepwhilstmeditating · 04/10/2023 16:22

No. I would not vote conservative under any circumstances.

Froodwithatowel · 04/10/2023 16:23

Merrymouse · 04/10/2023 16:05

It took a grassroots movement of mainly women to start pushing back; and keep on pushing until it was finally taken up in parliament and in the media.

I’m concerned that the Conservatives are getting their lines from American far right populists, not women. They are not interested in feminist lawyers patiently explaining human rights legislation and fighting and winning cases. If they were we wouldn’t have had so many years of Miller and Mordaunt pushing self ID and calling women raising concerns ‘so called feminists’. However I think it’s those feminist lawyers who are responsible for progress on this issue in the UK.

When Lee Anderson talks about why he, a man, doesn’t want to meet Eddie Izzard in the toilets in Parliament it’s clear that he doesn’t understand the issue, but the party is following his lead.

We don't have anything approaching the American far right in the UK, in the USA, the Tories would be left of centre, they're further left than the democrats. It is however a scare tactic being spoken a lot to try and stop women from fighting for their rights or anyone else supporting them.

And frankly, we've been pushed to this point by conscienceless, moral devoid extremists. It is going to take extremists from the other end to get the pendulum back to the middle, and then we can work out where to go next. But nice nice isn't going to make any difference now, gentle baby steps - yeah, about six years too late.

crumpet · 04/10/2023 16:27

Merrymouse · 04/10/2023 16:05

It took a grassroots movement of mainly women to start pushing back; and keep on pushing until it was finally taken up in parliament and in the media.

I’m concerned that the Conservatives are getting their lines from American far right populists, not women. They are not interested in feminist lawyers patiently explaining human rights legislation and fighting and winning cases. If they were we wouldn’t have had so many years of Miller and Mordaunt pushing self ID and calling women raising concerns ‘so called feminists’. However I think it’s those feminist lawyers who are responsible for progress on this issue in the UK.

When Lee Anderson talks about why he, a man, doesn’t want to meet Eddie Izzard in the toilets in Parliament it’s clear that he doesn’t understand the issue, but the party is following his lead.

Yes, I agree this is a risk

Original poster
lechiffre55 · 04/10/2023 16:28

@Merrymouse
I think part of the problem is assuming that groups like political parties are all single blobs with only one idea who completely agree with each other. In every political party there are disagreements, fractions, fallings out. Parties are made of of individual people who may share some core ideas, but there's plenty or room for many differing ideas in the mix too. Not every Tory or Labour member fits an identikit picture.

Where is the getting their ideas from far right America stuff coming from?
To me its just a way to try and explain away uncomfortable truths and it borders on conspiracy. It can't possibly be what they genuinely believe so if we pretend it comes from this really bad place then at least we can try and discredit it, smear it a bit.
I think the Tories are hopping onto a political hot topic they hope will get them extra votes at a time where they are well behind. Many months ago I would have said the Tories had no hope in hell at the next election. Now they might possibly be in the running for a tiny win, or just as good for them, a Labour win with no majority where Labour have to fight for every vote in the commons. A weak Labour govt that doesn't have the seats or balls to do anything. If the Tories turn it around from Labour being 30? points ahead, then they will be happy with that.
It is the grass roots GC crowd that has driven this topic being ever more in the public eye, but the politicians are meant to be representing the people, and if the Tories can use it to their advantage more fool Labour for giving it to them. Has Kier decided it's ok to say only women have cervixes yet?
Just not being a buffoon was all Starmer had to do to enjoy his lead and convert it into a healthy majority government, and he fucked it up because he doesn't even know what a woman is.

OP posts:
Merrymouse · 04/10/2023 16:34

We don't have anything approaching the American far right in the UK, in the USA

The National Conservatism Conference In May was attended by the Home Secretary and voiced many far right talking points about nationalism and birth rates.

There has always been a divide between people who are gender critical and believe sex is real (feminists), people who believe in gender boxes and believe sex is real and people who believe in gender boxes and that sex isn’t real.

Neither of the latter groups cares about women’s rights.

Rational persuasion - court cases, evidence given to sporting bodies, has meant progress in the UK. The other two groups dominate the US, and women’s rights there are in chaos.

VWdieselnightmare · 04/10/2023 16:36

Merrymouse, how many people attended? How large was the venue?

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 16:38

Merrymouse · 04/10/2023 16:20

that say we have a right to live our lives and be recognised in line with our gender identity, and that it is not ok to treat us as our biological sex at birth all the time, as to do so greatly reduces our quality of life, our right to privacy, and our right to simply be recognised for who we are.

I know many people believe it so, but I don’t think there is any specific right to have a gender identity recognised.

Freedom of expression, right to privacy and right not to suffer undue discrimination are relevant, but those are all qualified rights.

I’m just not seeing your posts reflected in what’s currently happening

Males are in single sex spaces

Merrymouse · 04/10/2023 16:39

Where is the getting their ideas from far right America stuff coming from?

The fact that the Conservatives only really noticed this topic when it became an issue for the far right in the US (not that there is a middle right in the Republican Party anymore) and that they are demonstrating their disdain for human rights generally now.

Hurrydash · 04/10/2023 16:39

VWdieselnightmare · 04/10/2023 16:03

Rishi Sunak at the Tory conference has just stood up and said men are men, women are women, people need to know what their children are being taught in schools and the NHS needs to be clear about which sex people are.

If in the next few months he and Kemi implement policy changes and announce an intention to abolish the GRA and strengthen the Equality Act to make it clear that sex=chromosomes and not feelings, then I'll give the Tories my vote — because they have listened and they deserve it and Labour have just pissed away my many years of support in order to virtue signal.

I suspect this reflects what very many women think and how they will vote.
BTW many men too.

They have mothers, wives, sisters, daughters....

Original poster
lechiffre55 · 04/10/2023 16:45

Merrymouse · 04/10/2023 16:39

Where is the getting their ideas from far right America stuff coming from?

The fact that the Conservatives only really noticed this topic when it became an issue for the far right in the US (not that there is a middle right in the Republican Party anymore) and that they are demonstrating their disdain for human rights generally now.

I don't think there is any merit to this claim at all sorry.
I think they are reacting to the discourse in the UK, TERF island. The legal cases in the UK, The Cass Report, all the media coverage in the UK.
Your idea that they are blind to all that around them, but looking for subjects in the USA to leverage seems to me wishful thinking at best, or you searching for an explanation that fits your beliefs.

OP posts:
Spinet · 04/10/2023 16:50

VWdieselnightmare · 04/10/2023 16:03

Rishi Sunak at the Tory conference has just stood up and said men are men, women are women, people need to know what their children are being taught in schools and the NHS needs to be clear about which sex people are.

If in the next few months he and Kemi implement policy changes and announce an intention to abolish the GRA and strengthen the Equality Act to make it clear that sex=chromosomes and not feelings, then I'll give the Tories my vote — because they have listened and they deserve it and Labour have just pissed away my many years of support in order to virtue signal.

Honestly, how do you think the current batch of Tories are going to cope with everything that isn't this one issue?

Do your opinions align with theirs on the handling of the economy, immigration, human rights, investment in infrastructure, what kinds of tax we have and who pays what, public transport, cars and roads, the environment, and education? And if your opinions do align, what have the tories done in the past 13 years that indicates the party is competent to achieve any of its promises apart from the ones that depend on individuals within it bending the rules to suit their own personal circumstances?

I can see the point of viewing everything through a particular lens, like the Women's Equality Party or the Greens do, but actually voting on one issue when all the rest is currently going to absolute shit? Where is the sense in that?

Merrymouse · 04/10/2023 16:54

Your idea that they are blind to all that around them, but looking for subjects in the USA to leverage seems to me wishful thinking at best, or you searching for an explanation that fits your beliefs.

The idea that the Conservatives have lurched to the right is not wishful thinking and is evidenced by Braverman’s recent speeches about multiculturalism appearance at the NatCon conference, and conspiracy theories about 15 minute cities and meat taxes.

Again, they have been in power for 13 years. They have had plenty of time to notice what is going on.

Bananasandcorn · 04/10/2023 16:57

VWdieselnightmare · 04/10/2023 16:03

Rishi Sunak at the Tory conference has just stood up and said men are men, women are women, people need to know what their children are being taught in schools and the NHS needs to be clear about which sex people are.

If in the next few months he and Kemi implement policy changes and announce an intention to abolish the GRA and strengthen the Equality Act to make it clear that sex=chromosomes and not feelings, then I'll give the Tories my vote — because they have listened and they deserve it and Labour have just pissed away my many years of support in order to virtue signal.

Sunak didn't say how a hospital like my main District Hospital will be able to have enough wards and staff to implement any new guidelines, which is why they are guidelines and not laws.

He knows he wont or cannot fund the NHS to enable this, look at how much Govt borrowing has shot up recently?

Doubtful he will get rid of the GRA, too many in his own party support this act..

On schools, how he expects to give pupils an extra 190 hours of teaching plus make maths compulsory, when we don't have enough teachers is anyone's guess, i suspect he'll say what you want to hear but they'll be no action on changes to subject matter.

Its all been promised before :(

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 17:00

lechiffre55 · 04/10/2023 16:45

I don't think there is any merit to this claim at all sorry.
I think they are reacting to the discourse in the UK, TERF island. The legal cases in the UK, The Cass Report, all the media coverage in the UK.
Your idea that they are blind to all that around them, but looking for subjects in the USA to leverage seems to me wishful thinking at best, or you searching for an explanation that fits your beliefs.

Show quote history

I’m not seeing it either. Maybe for TRA but not for backlash which really is women led

Froodwithatowel · 04/10/2023 17:02

but actually voting on one issue when all the rest is currently going to absolute shit?

The options as I see them, are absolute shit, (and I agree totally), or all the same absolute shit plus a whole lot worse shit, with women's rights and equalities, homosexual rights, religious freedoms, and disabled rights plus children's safeguarding going down the toilet as a starting point. And those are just the bits they dare say up front.

Believe me there is not one single party I want to vote for, it will be reluctantly hanging onto the least dodgy turd floating by.

Bananasandcorn · 04/10/2023 17:09

Froodwithatowel · 04/10/2023 17:02

but actually voting on one issue when all the rest is currently going to absolute shit?

The options as I see them, are absolute shit, (and I agree totally), or all the same absolute shit plus a whole lot worse shit, with women's rights and equalities, homosexual rights, religious freedoms, and disabled rights plus children's safeguarding going down the toilet as a starting point. And those are just the bits they dare say up front.

Believe me there is not one single party I want to vote for, it will be reluctantly hanging onto the least dodgy turd floating by.

Edited

The problem as i see it is that there are genuine Trans people, locked into the wrong body, do they have no rights?
We used to believe in sterilisation and imprisonment of gays & not that long ago either.

So long as they do not impinge on female rights (or anyone else's) they should not suffer discrimination.

Yes of course rights are going down the toilet, funding has been slashed, that has consequences for us all.

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 17:13

Bananasandcorn · 04/10/2023 17:09

The problem as i see it is that there are genuine Trans people, locked into the wrong body, do they have no rights?
We used to believe in sterilisation and imprisonment of gays & not that long ago either.

So long as they do not impinge on female rights (or anyone else's) they should not suffer discrimination.

Yes of course rights are going down the toilet, funding has been slashed, that has consequences for us all.

Show quote history

So long as they do not impinge on female rights (or anyone else's) they should not suffer discrimination.

What TRAs are arguing for, and getting, is access to female spaces

If it was just about being a different legal sex but no access women wouldn’t be in a clash over this

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 17:15

It’s occurring now because we are noticing what’s going on.

Some politicians can hear that others refuse to listen

Spinet · 04/10/2023 17:16

Froodwithatowel · 04/10/2023 17:02

but actually voting on one issue when all the rest is currently going to absolute shit?

The options as I see them, are absolute shit, (and I agree totally), or all the same absolute shit plus a whole lot worse shit, with women's rights and equalities, homosexual rights, religious freedoms, and disabled rights plus children's safeguarding going down the toilet as a starting point. And those are just the bits they dare say up front.

Believe me there is not one single party I want to vote for, it will be reluctantly hanging onto the least dodgy turd floating by.

Edited

I really disagree that the Tories are the least dodgy turd floating by. I mean, most of them have recently been fined for breaking laws they made during a National crisis. The PM himself creates tax laws to boost his family's income, and even the UN thinks their policies on immigration are a bit, well, illegal. They're such dodgy turds they don't even float, they just dissipate in a diarrheaic miasma.

MadderthanMorris · 04/10/2023 17:24

xxyzz · 04/10/2023 09:18

I don't believe that anyone genuinely interested in the topic could fail to be aware of the numerous incidents. Google is your friend. You don't need British Jews to do your work for you.

The fact that you think your views on antisemitism are more reliable than those of 85% of British Jews says quite enough.

If you think 85% of British Jews are either lying deliberately to attack the left or are just too stupid to recognise what antisemitism looks like, you might want to question your own attitudes on this issue, and quite how unbiased you actually are.

Corbyn has had ample time to sue, if this accusation was fake. He's never going to, because he's a massive antisemite. As is anyone who claims 'it was a scam' or refers to the 'big lie' (always good to parrot Goebbels while claiming not to be an antisemite, eh?), etc.

And yes, I am angry. Corbyn put and his supporters continue to put me and my family at risk. I am a victim of crime thanks to Corbyn and his lies.

Show quote history

So, after 2-3 years of relentless suggestion through the media that "Corbyn is an antisemite", a documentary commissioned by the BBC to precisely that end (that will be the BBC that I was informed upthread "favours Labour"), determined action by anti-Corbyn Labour MPs to exploit it and a report by the EHRC about it . . . despite you being part of the demographic supposedly most hurt by it, and assuring me that 85% of that demographic are as convinced of this fact as you are . . .

You can't provide one single piece of evidence, or quickly find one, to prove its veracity?

"Google is my friend" - yet when I Google "evidence that Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic" all I get on the first page is links to mainstream media articles from the time about the "antisemitism crisis" in Labour (with no specifics whatsoever about Corbyn), and one article from the Times of Israel saying the Jewish Labour Movement had "filed a report" including nine acts of antisemitism by him, naming four of them, some of which are not in themselves antisemitic, and saying nothing whatsoever of what became of this report, what the evidence for it was or whether it was upheld or rejected. (It's now emerged that the Jewish Labour Movement at the time was effectively controlled by representatives of the Israeli embassy concerned about Corbyn's stance on Palestinian human rights.)

If you're that certain, surely there must be some clear, unequivocal things that he SAID or DID to that effect that you can tell me, musn't there?

What crime did you suffer due to "Jeremy Corbyn's lies", and what lies, exactly?

Merrymouse · 04/10/2023 17:28

Sorry - a bit off topic

IdealisticCynic · 04/10/2023 18:24

No. An election isn’t about 1 issue and the Tory party as a whole, over the last 13 years, has been utterly appalling and have run the UK into the ground. It will take decades to recover. There is no way I would vote for more of the same.

PorcelinaV · 04/10/2023 18:35

EasternStandard · 04/10/2023 13:59

The Goodwin case does not give men access to womens spaces

Surely can see the case leading to the GRA does precisely that by allowing legal female sex certificates for men.

Show quote history

I looked at it, and it's talking about post operation.

It appears to say that the decision will have impacts on various areas including criminal justice. It also mentions that in the UK transsexuals were already being put in the prison of their gender identity.

So it seems to be suggestive that it would allow men into women’s prisons.

The concern was with transsexuals suffering anxiety and humiliation and having their sex revealed, and I don't see why that couldn't also easily apply to "needing" to be in women's spaces in a hospital or whatever. That seems like a straightforward argument that if you put them in the men's part of a hospital, you have revealed their sex.

Also, I note that they weren't happy about having to pay higher car insurance as they weren't recognised as female!

Froodwithatowel · 04/10/2023 19:19

What rights do TQ+ people (we're not just talking about trans people, this is a diverse group of people), currently not have?

Other than to be treated in all circumstances as the sex of their choice, and for male TQ+ people to use female spaces regardless of the impact on female people?

Honestly, what rights are we talking about here that are missing?