Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Medical discrimination against cisgender men and women

55 replies

PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 13:12

This is something that worries me, as it appears that there may be an institutional medical bias and discrimination against cisgender men and women.

At one point with hormone use for trans people, we were talking about a serious mental health issue and gender dysphoria. So that distress then justified major interventions like surgery and cross sex hormones.

But now, they seem to have lowered the bar, and e.g. non binary people that aren't even supposed to be suffering from mental illness (debatable going off some TikToks), are being, "helped in affirming their gender".

https://www.gendergp.com/non-binary-hormone-use/

OK, so if you have lowered the bar that much, why aren't they also helping cisgender men and women to "affirm their gender"?

Cisgender males could want testosterone for building muscle. That's tied up with their gender identity and gender expression for sure.

That's also true for some cisgender women. It would be a stereotype to think that muscle and strength are only for cisgender men.

Neither can we think that a woman who does that would have to be, "non binary". Of course it can also be part of the gender expression for cisgender women who don't have to conform to traditional gender roles or expectations.

However, I think the best case here, on health grounds, is adult cisgender males.

If your lifestyle involves healthy eating, cardio, weight training, and you were to take limited amounts of testosterone to help you with that, then the risks may not be too high.

(We aren't talking about the black market very high dosage drug cocktails, multiple drugs, taken by some pro bodybuilders here, which is unquestionably dangerous.)

So what I'm thinking, is that it's likely going to be safer to give testosterone to cisgender adult males, than to give it to "non binary" biological females.

So if it's safer, why wouldn't they want to help the cisgender males with their gender expression, if they are willing to help non binary people with gender expression?

Hormone Use for Non-Binary People

Key information about hormone options available for non-binary people. HRT may be used by non-binary people on a regular basis.

https://www.gendergp.com/non-binary-hormone-use

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 26/09/2023 13:40

It's not an issue. Men can and do buy testosterone for cosmetic purposes from private clinics or doctors. Cosmetic treatment is something that people pay for themselves.

Toseland · 26/09/2023 13:47

Don't give them any more ideas, we're in a terrible mess already!

Original poster
PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 13:48

Thelnebriati · 26/09/2023 13:40

It's not an issue. Men can and do buy testosterone for cosmetic purposes from private clinics or doctors. Cosmetic treatment is something that people pay for themselves.

Haven't heard of this. Can you give an example of a clinic?

I'm aware of clinics that would give testosterone replacement for health purposes, but not testosterone for "cosmetic purposes".

OP posts:
IcakethereforeIam · 26/09/2023 14:22

I want feminine clothing, makeup and beauty treatments to affirm my gender. On the NHS of course. Although, I'll pay for the prescription. I'm not a grifter after all.

Original poster
PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 14:50

@Thelnebriati

If you mean that men may go to a testosterone replacement clinic, when their real agenda isn't that they have an unusually low level, or declining levels because of age, but are doing it for "cosmetic purposes", then I don't see why that's relevant here.

That means that some men manipulate the system, or some private doctors may turn a blind eye for customers.

What I'm talking about, is the medical system not recognising cisgender "gender affirmation" in the same way as non binary.

That would look like bias and discrimination if they don't officially place it on an equivalent level.

Of course this doesn't apply to that part of the medical profession that thinks things have gone too far.

But for the activists, and the doctors involved in this, they can either support cisgender gender affirmation with hormones, or they can be charged with bigotry and discrimination.

If not, then why not?

OP posts:
HagoftheNorth · 26/09/2023 14:56

I’ve been struggling to access hormonal treatment for dd - she needs it to regulate extremely heavy periods. However, there appears to be a national shortage. I would love to know whether this is related to demand for hormone therapy to address gender identity issues. I do realise that a ‘cis girl’ is going to be VERY on the NHS priority list 🥲

user123212 · 26/09/2023 14:58

HagoftheNorth · 26/09/2023 14:56

I’ve been struggling to access hormonal treatment for dd - she needs it to regulate extremely heavy periods. However, there appears to be a national shortage. I would love to know whether this is related to demand for hormone therapy to address gender identity issues. I do realise that a ‘cis girl’ is going to be VERY on the NHS priority list 🥲

Sad to hear that. Can you say she's trans and get the same hormones? (don't worry about the logic, the trans label might get you further)

Thelnebriati · 26/09/2023 15:00

But would the doses be correct?

Weefreetiffany · 26/09/2023 15:00

I hate that the phrase “gender affirming care” is being turned into an umbrella term that gathers anything to do with sex based health treatment under it. I’ve seen people try to retrofit that HRT is gender affirming care, and so it’s fine to give hormone blockers to children because it’s the same as HRT for menopausal women. It really isn’t the same at all though. Likewise giving testosterone to men is not gender affirming. It’s health affirming. Adding hormones that are naturally occurring to improve quality of life and health. It’s not blocking or adding hormones that shouldn’t be there.

This type of reasoning seems to start with the conclusion that gender affirming care is the best thing ever and work backwards to make things fit it and therefore legitimise it. It’s super toxic. Mentally healthy people don’t need to inject themselves with hormones to prove their identity/sexual reality/gender fashion, or create a warped argument to justify doing it to themselves.

Immoralplant · 26/09/2023 15:11

I understand that men who want to be women can get electrolysis on the NHS.
So surely hairy cis women should also get it to affirm their woman-gender?

Original poster
PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 15:12

Thelnebriati · 26/09/2023 15:00

But would the doses be correct?

I'm assuming that was aimed at me, and not the different conversation about shortages?

They wouldn't have to use the same dosage as for a non binary biological female.

They just need to use a dosage that "affirms gender" successfully for this different population, and where it's similar safety or better safety.

OP posts:
GarlicGrace · 26/09/2023 15:22

It's not just body builders.

Women can't get their tubes tied in case they change their minds about having more children, yet 18-year-old girls are given full hysterectomies if they think they're men.

It's a huge battle for women to get HRT post-menopause, due to health risks. The same risks are vastly magnified in men taking much bigger doses of the same hormones because they think they're women, but they get a ready prescription.

Both men & women may want breast reductions for cosmetic reasons. They can't have them on the NHS, unless they're women claiming to be men. Women can't get breast implants to "affirm their gender" but men can (not always on the NHS).

GarlicGrace · 26/09/2023 15:23

Immoralplant · 26/09/2023 15:11

I understand that men who want to be women can get electrolysis on the NHS.
So surely hairy cis women should also get it to affirm their woman-gender?

And this - I knew I'd forgotten something important!

SecretShambles · 26/09/2023 15:29

Beauty salon near me charges £30 a session for facial laser hair removal. If I identity as a man identifying as a woman, reckon I could get it on the NHS? After all, no one can say my inner gender feelz is wrong....

redguitar123 · 26/09/2023 15:31

PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 13:12

This is something that worries me, as it appears that there may be an institutional medical bias and discrimination against cisgender men and women.

At one point with hormone use for trans people, we were talking about a serious mental health issue and gender dysphoria. So that distress then justified major interventions like surgery and cross sex hormones.

But now, they seem to have lowered the bar, and e.g. non binary people that aren't even supposed to be suffering from mental illness (debatable going off some TikToks), are being, "helped in affirming their gender".

https://www.gendergp.com/non-binary-hormone-use/

OK, so if you have lowered the bar that much, why aren't they also helping cisgender men and women to "affirm their gender"?

Cisgender males could want testosterone for building muscle. That's tied up with their gender identity and gender expression for sure.

That's also true for some cisgender women. It would be a stereotype to think that muscle and strength are only for cisgender men.

Neither can we think that a woman who does that would have to be, "non binary". Of course it can also be part of the gender expression for cisgender women who don't have to conform to traditional gender roles or expectations.

However, I think the best case here, on health grounds, is adult cisgender males.

If your lifestyle involves healthy eating, cardio, weight training, and you were to take limited amounts of testosterone to help you with that, then the risks may not be too high.

(We aren't talking about the black market very high dosage drug cocktails, multiple drugs, taken by some pro bodybuilders here, which is unquestionably dangerous.)

So what I'm thinking, is that it's likely going to be safer to give testosterone to cisgender adult males, than to give it to "non binary" biological females.

So if it's safer, why wouldn't they want to help the cisgender males with their gender expression, if they are willing to help non binary people with gender expression?

This is gendergp - not the NHS - both founders suspended from the GMC at one point, I think one struck off and the other has a criminal conviction related to the running of the clinic - since sold to a company in Hong Kong. It's not a company to take seriously.

Original poster
PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 15:39

redguitar123 · 26/09/2023 15:31

This is gendergp - not the NHS - both founders suspended from the GMC at one point, I think one struck off and the other has a criminal conviction related to the running of the clinic - since sold to a company in Hong Kong. It's not a company to take seriously.

Show quote history

I'm well aware that it's not the NHS.

If you look at my posts, I said that my argument didn't apply to the whole of the medical profession, but it did apply to activists and doctors involved.

OP posts:
MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 26/09/2023 15:49

Immoralplant · 26/09/2023 15:11

I understand that men who want to be women can get electrolysis on the NHS.
So surely hairy cis women should also get it to affirm their woman-gender?

I was going to say exactly this. Apparently transwomen find their beards distressing so need them removed permanently. As a woman I find mine pretty distressing too, yet I'm stuck removing it myself on a daily basis.

Useruser1 · 26/09/2023 15:54

I'm going to transition from Male to Alpha Male, and get the NHS to pay for it! :)

londonmummy1966 · 26/09/2023 16:02

I've been toying with self - id as a beautiful 30 year old in the hopes that the NHS would then pay for some cosmetic surgery.....

VivaLaVolvo · 26/09/2023 16:33

Cis gender?

That doesnt exist surely?

Thelnebriati · 26/09/2023 16:37

And its a banned term on the board. But I don't think OP is interested in respecting women's boundaries.

KillingMeWithSilence · 26/09/2023 16:37

Cis gender isnt a thing, its a made up term to replace a perfectly acceptable and well used terms. I think if this carries on the whole situation will look like the kittens have unleashed themselves in a bag of wool.

Stop overthinking and move forward with care and consideration and without alienating anyone

MrsTwartle · 26/09/2023 16:42

Not reading anything that refers to pointless term “cis” anything.
Can’t believe it’s gone largely unchallenged in this board!
We are men or women.

PurpleBugz · 26/09/2023 17:40

Yeah as a "cis" woman who identifies as 21 therefore not having a saggy body ive not bothered seeing the gp to be referred for a boob lift because I know the discrimination is rife and I just can't face it.

lemonraincoat · 26/09/2023 17:49

I can't stand all this "cis" stuff. Please just say men or women. (or transwomen or transmen if you must)

Swipe left for the next trending thread