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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Medical discrimination against cisgender men and women

55 replies

PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 13:12

This is something that worries me, as it appears that there may be an institutional medical bias and discrimination against cisgender men and women.

At one point with hormone use for trans people, we were talking about a serious mental health issue and gender dysphoria. So that distress then justified major interventions like surgery and cross sex hormones.

But now, they seem to have lowered the bar, and e.g. non binary people that aren't even supposed to be suffering from mental illness (debatable going off some TikToks), are being, "helped in affirming their gender".

https://www.gendergp.com/non-binary-hormone-use/

OK, so if you have lowered the bar that much, why aren't they also helping cisgender men and women to "affirm their gender"?

Cisgender males could want testosterone for building muscle. That's tied up with their gender identity and gender expression for sure.

That's also true for some cisgender women. It would be a stereotype to think that muscle and strength are only for cisgender men.

Neither can we think that a woman who does that would have to be, "non binary". Of course it can also be part of the gender expression for cisgender women who don't have to conform to traditional gender roles or expectations.

However, I think the best case here, on health grounds, is adult cisgender males.

If your lifestyle involves healthy eating, cardio, weight training, and you were to take limited amounts of testosterone to help you with that, then the risks may not be too high.

(We aren't talking about the black market very high dosage drug cocktails, multiple drugs, taken by some pro bodybuilders here, which is unquestionably dangerous.)

So what I'm thinking, is that it's likely going to be safer to give testosterone to cisgender adult males, than to give it to "non binary" biological females.

So if it's safer, why wouldn't they want to help the cisgender males with their gender expression, if they are willing to help non binary people with gender expression?

Hormone Use for Non-Binary People

Key information about hormone options available for non-binary people. HRT may be used by non-binary people on a regular basis.

https://www.gendergp.com/non-binary-hormone-use

OP posts:
mumof3kids1987 · 26/09/2023 17:52

PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 13:12

This is something that worries me, as it appears that there may be an institutional medical bias and discrimination against cisgender men and women.

At one point with hormone use for trans people, we were talking about a serious mental health issue and gender dysphoria. So that distress then justified major interventions like surgery and cross sex hormones.

But now, they seem to have lowered the bar, and e.g. non binary people that aren't even supposed to be suffering from mental illness (debatable going off some TikToks), are being, "helped in affirming their gender".

https://www.gendergp.com/non-binary-hormone-use/

OK, so if you have lowered the bar that much, why aren't they also helping cisgender men and women to "affirm their gender"?

Cisgender males could want testosterone for building muscle. That's tied up with their gender identity and gender expression for sure.

That's also true for some cisgender women. It would be a stereotype to think that muscle and strength are only for cisgender men.

Neither can we think that a woman who does that would have to be, "non binary". Of course it can also be part of the gender expression for cisgender women who don't have to conform to traditional gender roles or expectations.

However, I think the best case here, on health grounds, is adult cisgender males.

If your lifestyle involves healthy eating, cardio, weight training, and you were to take limited amounts of testosterone to help you with that, then the risks may not be too high.

(We aren't talking about the black market very high dosage drug cocktails, multiple drugs, taken by some pro bodybuilders here, which is unquestionably dangerous.)

So what I'm thinking, is that it's likely going to be safer to give testosterone to cisgender adult males, than to give it to "non binary" biological females.

So if it's safer, why wouldn't they want to help the cisgender males with their gender expression, if they are willing to help non binary people with gender expression?

Lost me at "cis"

SweetHomeAlabaster · 26/09/2023 17:58

Weefreetiffany · 26/09/2023 15:00

I hate that the phrase “gender affirming care” is being turned into an umbrella term that gathers anything to do with sex based health treatment under it. I’ve seen people try to retrofit that HRT is gender affirming care, and so it’s fine to give hormone blockers to children because it’s the same as HRT for menopausal women. It really isn’t the same at all though. Likewise giving testosterone to men is not gender affirming. It’s health affirming. Adding hormones that are naturally occurring to improve quality of life and health. It’s not blocking or adding hormones that shouldn’t be there.

This type of reasoning seems to start with the conclusion that gender affirming care is the best thing ever and work backwards to make things fit it and therefore legitimise it. It’s super toxic. Mentally healthy people don’t need to inject themselves with hormones to prove their identity/sexual reality/gender fashion, or create a warped argument to justify doing it to themselves.

Agreed, it feels like the usual trickery they do in redefining words and terms to fit their argument, mashing concepts together that don't fit. Like how "gender identity" cover both knowledge of one's own sex and a desire to be the opposite sex, depending on the individual, as if these are both the same type of thing. It's frustrating!

ImAStallionBaby · 26/09/2023 18:04

MrsTwartle · 26/09/2023 16:42

Not reading anything that refers to pointless term “cis” anything.
Can’t believe it’s gone largely unchallenged in this board!
We are men or women.

Was just going to say this. Can't read the op, as too annoying.

Original poster
PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 18:08

mumof3kids1987 · 26/09/2023 17:52

Lost me at "cis"

Show quote history

The argument is aimed at people that would be fine with "cisgender". I'm not endorsing the term.

OP posts:
Helenloveslee4eva · 26/09/2023 18:13

Just Google gender Gp … very umm interesting

Tessisme · 26/09/2023 18:14

The argument is aimed at people that would be fine with "cisgender". I'm not endorsing the term.

Well, I guess it's not aimed at me then because I hate the term 'cis'. So I don't get to have an opinion.

IcakethereforeIam · 26/09/2023 18:26

@PorcelinaV I thought you were probably using 'cis' snarkily. 😊

Original poster
PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 18:29

Thelnebriati · 26/09/2023 16:37

And its a banned term on the board. But I don't think OP is interested in respecting women's boundaries.

I read the rules, and no, it doesn't appear to be a banned term. It depends on context apparently.

But your personal attack may break the rules perhaps.

"Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but our moderation team will most likely delete these expressions if we feel they're being used in a deliberately inflammatory way."

OP posts:
DadJoke · 26/09/2023 18:56

HagoftheNorth · 26/09/2023 14:56

I’ve been struggling to access hormonal treatment for dd - she needs it to regulate extremely heavy periods. However, there appears to be a national shortage. I would love to know whether this is related to demand for hormone therapy to address gender identity issues. I do realise that a ‘cis girl’ is going to be VERY on the NHS priority list 🥲

The number of trans women is so tiny as a proportion of people taking hormones, it's doesn't make any difference over all. About 500,000 women are prescribed HRT on the NHS, and possibly 3000 of them are trans women - about 0.6%. There are only 48,000 trans women in the entire country.

redguitar123 · 26/09/2023 19:42

PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 15:39

I'm well aware that it's not the NHS.

If you look at my posts, I said that my argument didn't apply to the whole of the medical profession, but it did apply to activists and doctors involved.

Show quote history

But if you want something dodgy prescribed/done, you can pretty much always find someone to do it - this area is no different from others. Someone keeps giving Katie Price more plastic surgery - not much ethics there!

Original poster
PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 19:51

redguitar123 · 26/09/2023 19:42

But if you want something dodgy prescribed/done, you can pretty much always find someone to do it - this area is no different from others. Someone keeps giving Katie Price more plastic surgery - not much ethics there!

Show quote history

Do you think prescribing of hormones to non binary, is just a couple of bad actors?

It's not something that would be encouraged by many trans activists?

It wouldn't be supported by the major LGBT groups?

It's far away from the medical mainstream?

So even the "pro trans" side would reject it?

OP posts:
redguitar123 · 26/09/2023 20:25

PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 19:51

Do you think prescribing of hormones to non binary, is just a couple of bad actors?

It's not something that would be encouraged by many trans activists?

It wouldn't be supported by the major LGBT groups?

It's far away from the medical mainstream?

So even the "pro trans" side would reject it?

Show quote history

Many of the major trans groups have been shown not to be 'mainstream' e.g. stonewall, mermaids.

NancyDrawed · 26/09/2023 20:44

DadJoke · 26/09/2023 18:56

The number of trans women is so tiny as a proportion of people taking hormones, it's doesn't make any difference over all. About 500,000 women are prescribed HRT on the NHS, and possibly 3000 of them are trans women - about 0.6%. There are only 48,000 trans women in the entire country.

Show quote history

Where did you get those figures from, please?

BonfireLady · 26/09/2023 23:01

PorcelinaV · 26/09/2023 18:08

The argument is aimed at people that would be fine with "cisgender". I'm not endorsing the term.

Show quote history

I read your opening comment and was quite thrown. I couldn't work out what was being said.
Then I read the thread and got to this bit.... and went back to the start.

Genius. Very well put.

Even if someone has a belief in a gender identity, the logical conclusion is that you would only make an alteration to your own body if it was likely to help you to feel better.

PTSDBarbiegirl · 26/09/2023 23:49

Transing = coercive gay conversion.
I'm a woman and like all women we know which of us are discriminated against. As many have said the trend of having a trans 'daughter' instead of a gay son is the whole problem. Internalised homophobia is the result and dysphoria.

NancyDrawed · 27/09/2023 08:07

Thanks for those, @DadJoke

I was particularly interested to know where you got the 48k transwomen in the UK from, as I have only ever read that 'no one knows how many people identify as trans'

RethinkingLife · 27/09/2023 10:53

Lost me at "cis"

Agreed, still it's a known strategy. Persuading or compelling people to use language with which they don't agree is a technique that was written about by Solzhenitsyn, Lifton, Arendt, Cialdini, and probably many more.

And the simplest and most accessible key to our self-neglected liberation lies right here: Personal non-participation in lies. Though lies conceal everything, though lies embrace everything, we will be obstinate in this smallest of matters…
…
It’s dangerous. But let us refuse to say that which we do not think.
…
Our path is not to give conscious support to lies about anything whatsoever! And once we realize where lie the perimeters of falsehood, each sees them in his own way."

https://honestyculture.com/alexander-solzhenitsyn-live-not-by-lies/

"An amazing example is the prison-camp program in Korean War where the Chinese used commitment and consistency pressures to gain compliance from prisoners. Although the American servicemen had been trained to give minimal details (name, rank and number), they gave away much more. How? The Chinese first asked prisoners to “make statements so mildly anti-American or pro-Communist as to seem inconsequential” such as “The United States is not perfect.” Then, once they’d complied with these minor requests, they were gradually pushed to make bigger and bigger declarations. Once they’d agreed that the US was not perfect, they would be pushed to expand on ways in which this was the case – not wanting to be inconsistent, they complied."

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4284661-And-Barclays-dont-give-a-stuff-either

And Barclays don't give a stuff either... | Mumsnet

The corporate wokeness is really getting me down. I am fortunate not to work for these companies but changing banks is harder than changing supermarke...

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4284661-And-Barclays-dont-give-a-stuff-either

DadJoke · 27/09/2023 12:59

NancyDrawed · 27/09/2023 08:07

Thanks for those, @DadJoke

I was particularly interested to know where you got the 48k transwomen in the UK from, as I have only ever read that 'no one knows how many people identify as trans'

From the 2021 census data - though the way it was collected was questionable. It's almost impossible to find a form of words which doesn't offend gender critical people or transgender people, and the compromise didn't work.

Other estimates hugely vary, up to 500,000 transgender people. However, the NHS data on hormones for trans women is reasonably accurate.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

Gender identity, England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

The gender identity of usual residents aged 16 years and over in England and Wales, Census 2021 data.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/culturalidentity/genderidentity/bulletins/genderidentityenglandandwales/census2021

NancyDrawed · 27/09/2023 13:02

Thank you

Bosky · 28/09/2023 22:11

PorcelinaV I get the point you are making about potential discrimination.

Off the top of my head, a different way of phrasing the issue, although there might be better ones that others can suggest:

"This is something that worries me, as it appears that there may be an institutional medical bias and discrimination against men and women who do not claim to have a trans identity."

With a similar substitution of words throughout the rest of the OP.

This wording would cover everyone who claims to have a "trans identity", for whatever reason.

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 22:17

If you want all the free NHS treatment by identifying as trans, you are welcome to run to your GP and get on the waitlist for an initial gender clinic consult. It’s only a 5 year wait so super duper easy to access.

Bosky · 28/09/2023 22:42

There are some loopholes for those determined to exploit them:

https://www.medicalprotection.org/uk/articles/expert-advice-for-gps-treating-transgender-patients

RethinkingLife · 28/09/2023 23:06

TrailingLoellia · 28/09/2023 22:17

If you want all the free NHS treatment by identifying as trans, you are welcome to run to your GP and get on the waitlist for an initial gender clinic consult. It’s only a 5 year wait so super duper easy to access.

And the waiting lists and time to diagnosis for PCOS, endometriosis and other areas of gynaecology?

CAMHS? Adult mental health?