Are people becoming more paranoid about the idea men using women’s facilities?

[Pleaseme]

I was in the shower at the gym today and a member of staff came and knocked on the cubicle door to inform me I was in the ladies changing room. I was a bit confused and replied that I was a woman but thanks for checking.

It turns out some teenage girls ( council gym in a high school) had complained that there was a man in the changing room. I didn’t see them but I did hear some shrieking etc. I can only assume they saw my work clothes hanging up, hi vis t shirt, ballistic trousers and work boots and assumed I was a bloke.

I did go and chat with the staff member afterwards. She was definitely relieved I was not a man but was unsure what she could do if I had been. Are people allowed to choose where to get changed nowadays?

I am a bit bemused by the whole thing tbh. It’s not an assumption I’d of made at their age but perhaps people are much more concerned nowadays?

I have to admit I’ve never encountered a bloke in bathroom / showers. I have met a couple of blue haired young ladies, who were all I’m a man and used the gents at work. It wasn't popular but was short lived.

Also worth noting Prion that young women or girls are exposed to a lot of this in schools - sometimes mixed sex toilets and changing rooms and a lot of propaganda about how things should be 'inclusive'. They're at the sharp end. And also more vulnerable. And also dealing with teenage boys and young men.

Here is one about a school pool being used for public sessions too.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4605219-transwoman-in-the-changing-room-at-school-pool

I'm not surprised teenaged girls complained when they mistakenly thought a bug strong manual labourer man was in their changing room. On a positive note, fantastic opportunity to show them a real example of a woman in a male dominated industry.

I've been following this social movement for many years now. My primary concern has been the teenagers caught up groomed and radicalised in it.

But last week, in our tiny supermarket in our small rural town, I found myself literally shoulder to shoulder with the local trans woman.

He's a massive man. There wasn't really space for me at the second basin. I was extremely uncomfortable, especially knowing he'd been in the cubicle next to me (and he came in banging around - see the thread about the loud men a few weeks ago).

I didn't know what kind of man he is. I don't know if he's going to want to 'punch me in the face' for not sharing his beliefs (as promoted by so many).

Maybe 10 years ago I'd have been more sympathetic. But 10 years ago there weren't hoards of "activists" openly braying for the physical assault of women who don't share a belief.

As for hanging clothes in a gym changing room. Some small gyms are like that. A changing area with benches and hooks. A handful of lockers maybe. A couple of shower & toilet cubicles. Most people just leave their stuff on a hook.

Yes when I read it was a school gym OctogenarianDecathlete I could picture the set up. It all made more sense.

Normally there aren’t school kids in the public changing rooms at lunch time. P.e. Changing rooms are somewhere else in the building. My DS goes to a similar set up but different school and they aren’t supposed to use the public facilities during school hours. He is a member though so uses gents changing room after hours.

I think the staff member really wasn’t sure what she would be allowed to do had I been a bloke. La are stonewall diversity champions, the school itself is a silver rights respecting so it’s a bit awkward. It just apparently never happens. It’s a bit rural though I suspect gamekeepers/ farmers kids are a bit more rooted in biology than city Dc.

This is a battle that women didn't ask for. No women anywhere in the world have demanded that random men share their spaces where they undress, shower, use the toilet etc.
This breaking down of the social contract has been initiated by men. And often men with a vested interest in eroding women's boundaries. There's been a naivety on the part of so many in power with #nodebate successfully allowing the associated information about the nature of many of the men involved to be hidden. The erosion of the ability of women and girls to identify and call out a pervert / predator is dangerous.
Well done to those girls for being confident enough to stand up for their rights.

Yes, it's enormously unfair to expect a swimming pool reception worker to somehow handle such a difficult issue.

Which is why we need EHRC and the government to really step the fuck up and do their job. So far, nothing.

There’s a transwoman who occasionally uses or used to use the female changing room at the council run gym I go to. I haven’t seen him for a while, but I did tell staff I objected to having a male in the women’s changing room/shower area - they seemed a bit bemused , as though it hadn’t occurred to them. Of course, there were perfectly accessible changing cubicles in the unisex area he could have used, so it was deliberate.
Almost as annoying was the way he flung his stuff all over the bench all in a heap, not bothering to hang anything up, most unladylike.

It makes me more angry than I can possibly express.

A person gets changed from a women's swimming costume on the beach where I live. They strip themselves naked in public and get dressed from there. Daily or close to daily.

They have a penis.

Nobody is able to challenge them.

I think its definitely a thing. Fifteen years ago, few men would have risked openly entering a women's change area, women would have confident challenging them or raising with staff, and staff would have been confident kicking them out and calling the police.
Now, it's open season. Any man can wander in and know that he can play the victim if challenged, and the women and staff know that if they complain, they might end up like the wi-spa incident with their faces plastered across social media and jack booted, masked thugs starting riots to defend him.
Women have had to become hyper vigilant in what used to be safe spaces.
Once they'd have seen that high vis jacket and boots and assume it was just a woman who had them, but now they know its just as likely, if not more so, to be a man.

Call 111, there's definitely an offence there - public decency or something. No adult has a right to strip naked in public.

(And on a meaner note, fgs, do something! He is getting away with it because you are all tolerating it.)

Yep.

We can no longer call out perverts in our spaces. Indecent exposure and voyeurism are both effectively not only legalised but protected and sanctioned by law.

See Wi Spa and other very similar cases:

A woman complained at a man with a semi erect penis in the women's section.

She was called a 'dick' by other customers.
The Guardian implied she was lying.
Women who protested were physically attacked.
Riots in the streets.

A few months later when it emerges that Darren Merager had previous convictions for sex offences?

Silence.

Did the Guardian apologise?
Did it fuck.

Actually the Wiki of the Wi Spa is quite grimly amusing to read.

It's like a modern struggle with cognitive dissonance.

The article works very hard to suggest that Merager is not trans:

'a nude individual with a penis, most commonly believed to be a trans woman'

'an individual, commonly reported to be a transgender woman'

(Echoes of 'this individual' from Nicola Sturgeon and Humza Yousaf. Trans women are women until they may not be nice people, at which point they become 'individuals'. Womangender is a prize you get for good behaviour, it seems, rather than a biological reality that we can all observe.)

But the article all falls apart when it gets to:

'The suspect has denied guilt, claiming harassment over being a trans person'

There's more detail in there about the pre-trial hearing that I hadn't seen before, too.

(Content warning, btw, this is not pleasant reading, for CSA.)

Some of the hearing revolved around the suspect's penis:

'At a pre-trial hearing in February of 2023, two witnesses attested that the suspect’s penis had been erect.[30] This was corroborated by the initial police report, filed by the witness known as Cubana Angel, which stated the suspect’s penis was “partially erect.”[30] A fourteen-year-old witness described the suspect’s penis as “soft,” but added that she had never seen a penis before.[30] The suspect spoke with a reporter during a court recess and was quoted saying, “Why weren’t the two dozen women in the spa indecently exposed? Only men can be indecently exposed, but women can’t? Only the penis is indecent.”

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi_Spa_controversy

I am disgusted by the fact that it somehow matters how hard his penis was, rather than the fact that children were exposed to it.

Hm. Wiki has helpfully provided an image of a 'Transwoman' within the link, there. Instead of an image of Darren Merager. Hold on. I'll find one.

He doesn't appear to be wearing a flouncy frock; nevertheless he states he is 'legally female' and certainly claims to be a transwoman.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11586815/Registered-sex-offender-identifying-woman-arrested-exposing-erect-penis-young-girl.html

Perhaps hyper- vigilant would of been better than paranoid in my op. I’m a firm believer in single sex spaces. I was surprised to be confronted in the space designated for my sex because my work clothes aren’t stereotypically female.

I’d like to see clear guidance/ rules on this. It doesn’t seem hard. Women in the ladies, men in the gents, if you identify outside of your sex/ have issues with communal changing etc. use the unisex individual cubicles.

Cripes.

I don't want to derail this thread, so I won't post more about Wi Spa, but ...

Looking into the edit history of that article ...

Archive 1:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wi_Spa_controversy/Archive_1

Invisible battles have been raging for years.

I don't know that there's any point in calling 111.

Public nudity is not actually illegal in the UK.

Indecent exposure is defined as " A person intentionally exposes their genitals, and. They intend for someone to see them and be caused alarm or distress."

The person in question can argue that being naked while changing all ones's clothes in a place where it is normal to change clothes is not an offence, and that there is no intention to cause alarm or distress.

Yes, I fully agree, OP.

The current situation is a mess that is damaging women, girls, and all the progress we'd made in challenging sexist stereotypes.

When I was at school I used to walk home through the park. The ladies toilet was semi hidden with trees and a man with bright, badly applied makeup used to pull up his nightie and stick his penis out, touching it, at me and other girls. He had a big woollen trench coat on over his short transparent baby doll nightie. None of us used the ladies because of him so I don’t know if he ever went in - I expect not. He had men’s boots on and presented to me as a desperate mentally disturbed old man with his blond scruffy hair matted and general dirtiness. We started avoiding that path but I saw men still walk along it so I think he knew who to stay hidden in the trees from.

I have no idea what became of him. I wonder if he would be in the toilet blocks nowadays. Not those ones though as they shut down soon after.

So I was always a bit paranoid from a young age about men moping around toilets (especially with big coats on) but didn’t think men would enter the toilet block.

I think nowadays men are emboldened to enter and, therefore, OP yes I am more paranoid. I am basing this on my experience (I have other flashing stories I could tell you), knowledge of boys getting excited entering girls toilets at school and videoing them and the school dismissing it as they are ‘gender confused’. The paranoia is because it’s obvious a woman has to look after herself and her own safety. We can’t rely on general societal rules anymore.

You will not see much disagreement with your post on this board OP.

And imagine if girls and women felt confident again that only female people would be in a female single sex space, there would be no need for any one to be concerned that a male person would be ever disrespectful of this social norm or law. I am sure it is annoying that your clothes were seen as stereotypically male. That is a shame. Before I moved back to the UK, even in Sydney it was not unusual to see women in hi vis gear in their workspace or just walking around in breaks or to and from work.

Is it normal to change clothes, to the point of exposing genitals, on a beach though? I wild swim somewhere popular and whilst people do get changed you don’t see anything because people wrap towels around themselves and wiggle out of wet swimwear into clothes or wear dry robes.

I’d expect police officers to have a chat about how it could be perceived as offensive. I might be old fashioned though, police seem to have odd priorities these days.

I agree, most people do cover themselves up. But I think that would be regarded as a social convention rather than a legal requirement.

A witness can try reporting this kind if incident, saying that it did cause them alarm or distress. But a prosecutor would have to prove intention to cause alarm and distress.

One could contrast this with other incidents where complainants' reported feelings are taken very seriously but of course that is under other laws, and indeed other "laws".

Who's Jan?