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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are people becoming more paranoid about the idea men using women’s facilities?

61 replies

Pleaseme · 15/09/2023 22:32

I was in the shower at the gym today and a member of staff came and knocked on the cubicle door to inform me I was in the ladies changing room. I was a bit confused and replied that I was a woman but thanks for checking.

It turns out some teenage girls ( council gym in a high school) had complained that there was a man in the changing room. I didn’t see them but I did hear some shrieking etc. I can only assume they saw my work clothes hanging up, hi vis t shirt, ballistic trousers and work boots and assumed I was a bloke.

I did go and chat with the staff member afterwards. She was definitely relieved I was not a man but was unsure what she could do if I had been. Are people allowed to choose where to get changed nowadays?

I am a bit bemused by the whole thing tbh. It’s not an assumption I’d of made at their age but perhaps people are much more concerned nowadays?

I have to admit I’ve never encountered a bloke in bathroom / showers. I have met a couple of blue haired young ladies, who were all I’m a man and used the gents at work. It wasn't popular but was short lived.

OP posts:
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thirdfiddle · 16/09/2023 11:20

I wonder if there is also a degree of young people being more polarised in term of stereotypes? They're taught that you're not supposed to tell whether someone's a man or a woman by their body, but by their "presentation" or what they say. So maybe more likely to jump to ballistic trousers = man than someone a little older who grew up in the gender bending late C20th

Catiette · 16/09/2023 12:13

The potential impact on women's experience of public spaces day-to-day is enraging. Clearly, in a society in which Sarah must fight for the kind of rights she's being denied, this intangible, immeasurable increase in vigilance across a proportion of the general populace simply isn't going to register as in any way significant. But, when you think about it...

Historically (AKA ten years ago!), any news reports about men in women's spaces would have been few and far between, and founded on an explicit, definitive condemnation of this. Now, there's a good proportion that will be advocating FOR this unless an actual offence was committed (and even then, sometimes!)... And, in part because of the former kind of article, the latter - articles reporting such offences - are becoming more common.

What an insidious effect this must be having on at least some women's perception of public spaces. And some is too many.

I know I'm more wary than I was, and very uncomfortably conscious of the power shift that means that, whereas before I could call out an interloper, now I'd face an invidious choice between getting embroiled in unpleasant politics, or quietly & uncomplainingly leaving.

And just the knowledge that a man being there is more likely than it was before, however unlikely this may still be, also has an effect. There's this subtle increase in tension, in wariness, yes, in vigilance. And in a society in which so much of our movement in public is accompanied by this, the silent cost of losing the relief of a space offering respite from that must be immense.

Most times I contribute to these boards, I'll have had a recent experience of feeling a little unsafe, or feeling the need to adapt my behaviour or body language, in public because of a man. Today, just half an hour ago - an intense stare on a station platform, & the knowledge that, if I didn't overtly avert my eyes & emphasise disinterest, I could be in for an uncomfortable encounter or worse. I'm 40+!!!

I recently said to a lovely male relative how sorry I felt for my little niece growing up in this society, & he responded with a NAMALT. He was doing it to play devil's advocate in an engaging conversation - we enjoy debating - BUT it upset me. It still does.

I've seen a man sweep confidently out of the Ladies' at a large UK airport. His simple confidence in doing that - to him, it meant nothing (and sure, maybe to many women there, it didn't either) - HAS contributed to my increased sense of vigilance in going about my day-to-day life. Because, in the past, I'd have been reassured by a visible reminder of the protective social contract of collective public resistance to him. But, instead, on this occasion, he served to educate me, and other women, in what we've lost: the right to expect a female space to be free of men; the ironically reassuring security of the knowledge that any man in that context almost certainly has bad intentions, replaced by an uncomfortable ambiguity and uncertainty; the right to speak up if I feel unsafe.

These are huge losses.

I won't be the only woman of the 50 or so who watched that man leave those loos on whom he had that effect.

One man. One thoughtless loo trip.

Enraging.

(Edited to tone down swearing - don't usually swear. It just makes me so angry. And to add that, much of the time, I'm not conscious of being more wary, & am certainly not paranoid or restricting my movement. But I think the drivers' hazard perception text is an excellent analogy here. Drivers aren't fearfully expecting a kid behind every car... but in order to navigate safely, they're aware of the possibility. This is why driving can be very tiring. How dare society become complicit in changing women's experience of public space in this way without at the least inviting our input in a debate about this?!)

namitynamechange · 16/09/2023 12:15

There's also basic probabilities.
Women CAN wear ballistic trousers and work in professions that require them (OP is an obv example). But men are more likely to (OP mentions being the only woman). If I randomly saw a pair of trousers like that in the street no other context I might guess they belonged to a man. If I saw a pair of trousers like that in the woman's changing rooms etc then 10 years ago I might have assumed they were a woman because that would be the most likely explanation in that context. But that is no longer necessarily the most likely explanation...

Pleaseme · 16/09/2023 12:27

SunflowersAndSmellyTrainers · 16/09/2023 11:20

Who's Jan?

I thought it was a piss take, Jan the man perhaps? I struggle to imagine anyone getting their jollies by offending teenagers with workwear but anything is possible!

OP posts:
GoodOldEmmaNess · 16/09/2023 13:03

When I was 14 (very grungy and unfeminine) I was mistaken for a boy by a woman in a women's toilet and politely told that I should leave. I still feel mortified by itBlush. That was forty-six years ago. I'm sure that mistakes like this have always been quite common.

Transactivism wants to present gender critical thought as having created 'paranoia' about the possibility of men being in single-sex spaces, and it paints gender critical women as people who would challenge the presence in a women's toilet of anyone not meeting certain standards of femininity. The exact opposite is the case, of course. The actual gender critical position is that being a woman and complying with 'feminine' gender norms are two different things.

I personally don't feel paranoid about the possibility of men being in single-sex spaces and I don't know anyone that does. I don't 'feel' anything in particular. I just have a certain piece of knowledge - that, now, some men feel entitled to enter women's spaces and that in many cases they will be supported in doing this.

Rudderneck · 16/09/2023 16:40

Our brains are always calculating probabilities. Sometimes not very well, largely because they are adapted to a certain type of information availability that is nothing like the modern world.

But if there are more male people in women's changing rooms, people are more likely to expect they might see men in such places, and be more likely to interpret partial information that way.

Grammarnut · 16/09/2023 17:47

OhcantthInkofaname · 15/09/2023 23:32

A friend of mine has her 12 year old granddaughter at the gym. There was a male in the dressing room, exposed. My friend was told if she wished to avoid that situation, she would have to use the single dressing facility. That person identified as female and they could not force her to use the single facility.

Your friends needs to show the EA2010 to them. Transwomen can be excluded if it's proportionate to a legitimate end. Not having a man expose his genitals in front of pubescent and pre-pubescent girls is a legitimate end. They are breaking the law. The man is committing a crime - indecent exposure to a minor.

Bosky · 16/09/2023 20:14

Chersfrozenface · 16/09/2023 11:18

I agree, most people do cover themselves up. But I think that would be regarded as a social convention rather than a legal requirement.

A witness can try reporting this kind if incident, saying that it did cause them alarm or distress. But a prosecutor would have to prove intention to cause alarm and distress.

One could contrast this with other incidents where complainants' reported feelings are taken very seriously but of course that is under other laws, and indeed other "laws".

The way it works should then be:

> Contact police to report the man for committing indecent exposure every day in full sight and state that this is causing alarm and distress

> Police contact him and advise him that his actions are causing alarm and distress and that if he continues then he could be prosecuted

> If he continues then report him again

> The police can then prosecute because his actions are intentional - they have on record that he has been advised to stop exposing himself because it causes alarm and distress.

That is how "The Naked Rambler" kept getting convicted and spending time in prison.

Advice from the Police:

Indecent exposure and outraging public decency

Indecent exposure

Indecent exposure (legally called just 'exposure' and sometimes known as 'flashing') is when someone deliberately exposes their genitals in order to frighten or upset someone else.

Men and women can both commit indecent exposure. It can happen in public or in private.

Outraging public decency

The separate offence of outraging public decency is when someone does something lewd, obscene or disgusting in the presence of at least two members of the public.

What to do if it happens to you

You might feel anxiety, fear and feelings of distrust and violation. Or you might not feel alarmed or distressed at all. There is no right or wrong way to feel.

  • Look away and move away, if you can.
  • Don't engage directly with the offender.
  • Try not to show a strong emotional response.
  • If it's definitely safe to, consider taking a photo of them from a safe distance.
  • Report it to us, if you feel you can.
Report it

It takes courage to report something uncomfortable, but if you feel you can talk to us, we'll always take you seriously.

Your report can help us stop it happening to someone else. Sometimes people who commit this type of offence go on to commit more serious offences.

More info:

https://www.police.uk/ro/report/rsa/alpha-v1/advice/rape-sexual-assault-and-other-sexual-offences/indecent-exposure-flashing-offending-public-decency/

continentallentil · 16/09/2023 20:23

Nothing happened here

The girls saw something that made them think a man might be in the changing room

The staff checked it out as they should

There was no man

Why have you started this thread? No one was rude to you.

ZeldaFighter · 17/09/2023 10:10

continentallentil · 16/09/2023 20:23

Nothing happened here

The girls saw something that made them think a man might be in the changing room

The staff checked it out as they should

There was no man

Why have you started this thread? No one was rude to you.

Oh, how tiresome, do jog on.

You know what is being asked so if you don't want to contribute helpfully, do one.

Working in a place where diversity was accepted, I was occasionally bothered about using staff toilets in another building as I didn't know whether there were any trans members of staff.

Using the toilets in the public areas, it was on my mind, because they're quite small, enclosed spaces and while it never happened, I think it would have been quite intimidating.

However, toilets aren't my main focus - trans-identified men in women's sports, prisons, changing rooms and hospital wards bothers me far more.

booksandbeans · 17/09/2023 10:21

What to do if it happens to you

and this is the part which really angers me. Men can invade women's (single sex - the old fashioned kind) spaces and we as women are supposed to be meek and just try to look away.

If we fight back or resort to "oh, we're all ladies here aren't we', 'look at the ladies' Little Britain style (or just call them out for been a perv when they expose their male genitals) to make them feel uncomfortable in the same way they/men want us to feel, we are met with TERF accusations, threats of or just violence itself, or just pure 100% male testosterone attitude found in the pub after 4 pints. We are not allowed to fight back.

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