New sports club at DC’s high school only open to LGBTQ+ pupils and their allies

[SirChenjins]

Are they legally allowed to exclude GC pupils? Or pupils who are not one of the special alphabet children?

This is a really great club - nothing like the school has offered before. Seems a shame to limit attendance based on sexuality/gender ideology rather than interest/ability.

We’re in Scotland if that makes a difference.

But people bond and socialise with similar people. Nothing's going to change that - it's how we function. Female friendships. Different countries, cultures, ethnicities. Religions. Class. Hobbies. I don't think denying or discouraging this for one demographic is fair or advisable.

I do get what you're saying - that what distinguishes this particular demographic is an emerging sexuality that needs to develop at its own pace, with very real risks associated with a dedicated focus on it in a school environment (eg. premature sexualisation, ROGD).

But I still think that I'd say the ideal is to provide the freedom to join a well-managed group sharing this as a common interest, and to balance this with a whole load of other interests & past-times.

That's where my theory falls down, though - the well-managed: who decides what this constitutes, how is it monitored...? Well-managed right now, for example, seems highly likely to promote the "inclusive" belief that lesbians must be same-gender attracted, with all the potential risk & confusion that message entails.

So maybe using sport to counter all that is no bad thing?

(Above meant as reply to @Rudderneck at 2210.)

So maybe using sport to counter all that is no bad thing?

IF they’re countering it. I’d be worried that they’re reinforcing it.

Yeah, I can see that. Undecided. Playing devil's advocate a bit to sort out my own thinking.

Also, class not such a good example above. "The Toffs' Club, Friday Period 6 in 210. Minimum parental income required for membership..."😂

(I mean, I guess it's been done with all that Bullingdon bull. And look how well that worked out for us all!)

Silly eg., but it does show how complex it all is, I guess...

‘Doing something other than naval gaze is an excellent thing,’

if anything this thread is proof that LGBTQ + people, kids or whomever absolutely need their own grps and space away from the, frankly, batshit imaginings and theories of straight people About what happens at a sports group for gay kids.

To a large extent kids do this on their own. They have friends with similar interests and talk to them about their lives and thoughts.

I don't think that parents and teachers need to stage manage that.

You're use the term "LGBTQ+ people" in conjunction with an assumption that such a group won't have straight people in it. That's startlingly sweet and naïve.

For example, it's becoming ever more common for heterosexual adults and teens to identify as q-slur, because they are demisexual. What does demisexual mean? Demisexual means... not wanting to have sex with people you're not romantically attached to. It means not enjoying one-night stands. That is all!

I haven’t read the whole thread but my first thought on this is isn’t it what we want? We want lbtq kids to be supported to keep playing sports and be fit healthy people. We just don’t want male people in the girls/ women’s teams. So as long as that school is also supportive of girls playing sport I think I’m ok with this. Yes they haven’t put a big new sports facility in for the boys, but that is pretty much what most schools do do so I’m sorry it upsets your ds but let’s let other people have opportunities too. It’s not taking his sports away from him.

Do you think that with regards to groups for girls though? I think it’s important for girls to be able to do things wiht girls.

Also the assumption that all the posters on the thread who have doubts about this are straight.

My best friend of 21 years cut me off earlier this year for being a "TERF".
She now identities as queer.
I've no idea what that even means but she's no more queer than I'm a leprechaun.

About what happens at a sports group for gay kids

well its for gay kids and certain straight kids

Hadn’t seen codlingmoths post but my answer would have been the same

“For example, it's becoming ever more common for heterosexual adults and teens to identify as q-slur, because they are demisexual. What does demisexual mean? Demisexual means... not wanting to have sex with people you're not romantically attached to. It means not enjoying one-night stands. That is all!”

Yes, that’s partly whats behind my navel (not sure re. spelling) gaze. I’m sorry if it seemed offensive, @Perhapsperhapsto. I’ll admit I could have phrased it better. However, you may not have noticed that I’m arguing strongly for these kids to have their own spaces & discussions.

Re. the navel-gazing… Frankly, I think any teen discussion group focussed on any identity from the perspective of being a persecuted minority will face the challenge of balancing productive discussion with eg. less healthy rumination etc. Adults struggle with this too. It’s partly why I use the phrase “well-managed” above as another potential mitigation.

And the context outlined in the quote above is one that does actively encourage children to parse their identity & sexuality down to a particular entry in an astonishingly precise glossary. (This is the Q+, “by definition”, so almost certainly a part of such a group). I find it rather sad that kids are being encouraged to think so deeply & reductively about a complex part of themselves that’s still evolving, & only one part of them as a whole, defining themselves by it as opposed to accepting, reflecting, editing & seeing. And I do think this compounds the challenges of getting the right balance between productive discussion & rumination.

So yes, I do think that navel-gazing is a risk.

Would you still call the above “batshit imagining” about “what happens”?

Typo above. Not editing. Evolving!

Let’s be clear here - he’s not upset, he would simply have liked the opportunity to try an unusual sport, free of charge, in his lunch break, without his sexuality or gender beliefs being called into question, that’s all. He struggles academically and sports gives him a release from that. He’s a quiet lad, flies under the radar, and doesn’t cause any trouble - he just lives for his sports.

Of course LGBetc children should have somewhere to play sports - but that shouldn’t preclude pupils accessing the same clubs if they are not willing or ready to declare their sexuality or gender beliefs.

And absolutely I believe that (biological ) girls and women should have their own clubs. However , they wouldn’t be able to exclude the male transgirls (from the same LGBetc population who want their own space) - that seems hypocritical in the extreme.

It is hypocritical in the extreme.

We identify as queer and non binary which means we need our own sports club from which we can exclude anyone who isn't 100% aligned with our views because those people make us feel unsafe, but women who have been raped can't have their own rape crisis support group for female rape survivors and exclude male people whose presence makes them feel unsafe, and if they try to do this they are the oppressors and we will pull strings to stop them from doing it.

Make it make sense.

Either it's OK for a particular group to have their own meet ups for whatever purpose, set the criteria for who is in that group and exclude others who don't meet that criteria (justifying it on the basis of their own vulnerability) or it isn't.

LGBTQ+ people seem think it's fine for them to do this, but not fine for female people to do this (or even have a word for themselves, let alone half the alphabet).

‘Let’s be clear here - he’s not upset, he would simply have liked the opportunity to try an unusual sport, free of charge, in his lunch break, without his sexuality or gender beliefs being called into question, that’s all.’

all he has to say - to anyone who gives a shit- is ‘I love that sport so am going. Not gay though’
Why would he care if anyone thinks he’s gay though? It’s not a big deal anymore, right? Which is why the school shouldn’t even have separate stuff for LGBTQ kids, no? Is that your argument, you and lots of posters?

He can go. He just doesn’t want to in case anyone thinks he’s queer. Which may well indicate that he is actually. We’ve all been there at some point, OP.
been drawn to an event, or bar or movie but didn’t want to go in case anyone thought it meant we were queer - even though we were.

or made a big song and dance out of not going, or ‘I’m going cos I love the actor/game/ subject but it doesn’t make me gay.’

our school had do add ‘allies’ to their meet up group because of parents complaining the gay kids get ‘special’ treatment so it has to be open to all.

No- one really wants the straights there, except for that one super shy kid who needs his/her BFF to come along for support…

yiur son should watch ‘Heartstopper’ - might resonate with him.

If you say no one in any girls' sports team really wants the trans girls there, that is considered blatant transphobia.

What's the difference?

our school had do add ‘allies’ to their meet up group because of parents complaining the gay kids get ‘special’ treatment so it has to be open to all

school was easily browbeaten then, thats a shame

i don’t like allies A because i don’t know what it means in the context and B cos it means any random can go

at least bring a friend means exactly that

But a load of kids who meet the criteria are straight - everything after the B is straights! This isn't an LGB group, it's LGBTQ+. So straights with the 'correct' political beliefs can go, and straights with other beliefs can't. That's the problem.

'allies' does not mean 'friend', it means 'compliant to the political requirements'. It is about creating a belief that GOOD people are compliant and get nice things.

Allies for example believe people are whatever they say they are, that a trans person's desired reality trumps everything including your own perceptions, that girls have no right to privacy, dignity or equality of access, and that you must submit to your language being controlled at all times. Just for an example. And are celebrated - which you could interpret actually as grooming within safeguarding terms - for doing this nicely.

It is as creepy as fuck, and involving children in all this? Training them up young?

Read the bloody T written paperwork, where it specifically mentions the importance of getting to girls young before any stupid old bats get a chance to teach them to expect bodily privacy, a right to be a lesbian and perceive a male person as male whatever said male may think or say, a right to use the words to express your own lived experience whether or not that means calling out a fiction another person finds comforting, the right to not have to get your knickers off in front of this boy because he's said some magic words that remove your equality of humanity. The hope is to raise a generation of co operative enabling kids, mostly girls, who do not question the One True Faith.

It's rather like the taking kids from Native American reservations in to boarding schools to teach them Christianity, stamp out their culture, train them to be like their betters instead of their stupid backward family, and to be good little Christians.

I really don't get why people don't seem able to see the stark naked Emperor dancing about.

exactly

Still not sure I agree with the principle of "bring a friend". Isn't part of the point of school clubs to give children opportunities to make friends?

No school club should be run as though it is a private members' club for privileged adults.