Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

National Trust AGM

1000 replies

PRAMtran · 04/09/2023 13:59

I’ve received an email from the National Trust inviting me and all other members to vote in their AGM. Does anyone know if there are any things a woman’s rights advocate should vote for or against. Eg TWAW by stealth.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Cailleach1 · 10/09/2023 08:43

I read Toni Morrison's 'Beloved' as a new mother. It touched me deeply from that perspective of motherhood.

Obviously the context of the storyline was that of slavery, and how it particularly affected women and mothers. Giving impossible choices. It can relate to many situations and contexts of mothers in history though.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 08:44

TheHoover · 09/09/2023 22:44

@Ereshkigalangcleg So a bunch of posters going ‘the whole thing just smacks of identity politics, which I hate’ but refusing to be drawn into the details?

Well that’s worthwhile. I thought people were suggesting that critical thinking and rational debate was a good thing that happened a lot on this board.

There are plenty of other threads on this board that elaborate, in far more detail, these sorts of issues. Nobody wants to have to go into every last detail on this thread, which is why more general points are being made. Perhaps you could browse the many threads on this board and find some that might provide you with some more of the detail you are looking for?

I imagine most people are assuming you are familiar with such counter arguments already - and don't need everything spelling out.

GodessOfThunder · 10/09/2023 08:50

PencilsInSpace · 09/09/2023 22:00

Thank you @EdithStourton I couldn't work out what that referred to.

I agree the lack of a sense of humour from the patronising scolds is very sad and I don't think it can be good for their mental health.

It's possible to think that and also not think that slavery is funny. And also to think that the misrepresentation of that post is quite shocking and revealing.

It's possible to think that and also not think that slavery is funny.

So what exactly are the aspects of slavery that one might find “funny”?

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 08:58

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 08:12

Oh @narniabusiness posting trip advisor reviews as evidence……?

And noting that this was a temporary exhibition not the permanent exhibit. So presumably visitors could see the title and read what it was all about and then decide whether to view it or not?

Are you actually swayed by this?

If people want a more studied account of a certain issue or subject then they tend to visit temporary or special exhibitions; but if you are visiting a general collection then you want more general, rounded information. What you don't want is to be force fed a certain narrative - which has clearly beeen carefully constructed for certain political ends.

How many times does this need to be explained? People don't like the feeling that something is being forced on them and in a contrived way.

Did you actually read the review I posted the other day about a recent exhibition at the Fitzwilliam in Cambridge. That conveys perfectly the issue.

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 08:58

*It is surely racist to think that all people of African or Asian heritage think alike. They don't. And it is also a bit of a stretch to suggest that disagreeing with certain positions held by someone of African or Asian heritage is racist and/or somehow insensitive. I explained to you earlier how I think Intersectionalism has been reduced to sentiments such as that - and i reject it.

There are plenty of Black and Asian writers whose works I have read and appreciated; and I continue to do so. But I read ( and recommend) what I think I'll find enjoyable and interesting. I don't read stuff just because someone is of African or Asian heritage. How ridiculous would that be.

Making race central to everything is surely itself racist.*

@RebelliousCow is exemplifying so perfectly why feminism does not feel inclusive to many.

3 giant straw men in there (you seem to be suggesting which is…). All entirely illogical with no corrollory to speak of. Where on earth do you get that I think all non-white people share the same view?

as far as I can tell, the response to certain people feeling excluded from the feminist/women’s rights discussions on MN is to double down on the fact that there is no reason for anyone to feel excluded and to discredit their viewpoint for being too American. So effectively ‘you are wrong for feeling excluded’.

do you deny that others may have a more vested viewpoint in this matter? Ie the matter of educating others in Britain’s colonial history and involvememt in slavery?

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:01

Sausagenbacon · 10/09/2023 08:24

Maybe it's too early in the morning, but I've reread this
Cleverly designed to capture the votes of non-critical thinkers opposed to ideology and sentiment and not fact and evidence.
Several times and can't understand it.
But what comes through loud and clear is a 'we know best' attitude (along with a good dose of 'how very DARE you question us' fir good measure).

Yes, all of those Daily Mail readers ........inevitably

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:04

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 08:35

@narniabusiness the point being that a temporary exhibition that has been specially curated will have been designed to meet the brief of that exhibition rather than include other things that someone expects to see.

But yes, you have indeed evidenced that people don’t like being reminded of unpleasant facts.Something which didn’t actually need evidencing.

Edited

This post typifies your base position. That no matter what people tell you to the contrary you will keep on fallaciously repeating.

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:06

@RebelliousCow
interesting that you mention the daily mail.

Opposing increasing education in slavery and colonialism has now been compounded by ignoring the dangers of climate change in favour of pointing out the hypocrisy of individuals.

a picture is being formed.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:07

GodessOfThunder · 10/09/2023 08:50

It's possible to think that and also not think that slavery is funny.

So what exactly are the aspects of slavery that one might find “funny”?

Comprehension is a vital reading skill. You are suggesting a point that has not been asserted in the first place. Try and read with an open mind - rather than looking for the evidence you want to find.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:11

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 08:58

*It is surely racist to think that all people of African or Asian heritage think alike. They don't. And it is also a bit of a stretch to suggest that disagreeing with certain positions held by someone of African or Asian heritage is racist and/or somehow insensitive. I explained to you earlier how I think Intersectionalism has been reduced to sentiments such as that - and i reject it.

There are plenty of Black and Asian writers whose works I have read and appreciated; and I continue to do so. But I read ( and recommend) what I think I'll find enjoyable and interesting. I don't read stuff just because someone is of African or Asian heritage. How ridiculous would that be.

Making race central to everything is surely itself racist.*

@RebelliousCow is exemplifying so perfectly why feminism does not feel inclusive to many.

3 giant straw men in there (you seem to be suggesting which is…). All entirely illogical with no corrollory to speak of. Where on earth do you get that I think all non-white people share the same view?

as far as I can tell, the response to certain people feeling excluded from the feminist/women’s rights discussions on MN is to double down on the fact that there is no reason for anyone to feel excluded and to discredit their viewpoint for being too American. So effectively ‘you are wrong for feeling excluded’.

do you deny that others may have a more vested viewpoint in this matter? Ie the matter of educating others in Britain’s colonial history and involvememt in slavery?

You mean 'White Feminism'. You want race to be centred in everything - but only if it is black or Asian.

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:11

@RebelliousCow
no. Another straw man.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:12

I think it is obvious that many people are aware of just how much some people want to educate other people on issues which are of over-riding imporance to them.

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:13

And also clear that many do not want to listen, feel uncomfortable or, more to the point, change in any way.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:13

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:11

@RebelliousCow
no. Another straw man.

What you mean by 'straw man' is that I'm not conforming to what you'd like me to think or to say.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:15

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:06

@RebelliousCow
interesting that you mention the daily mail.

Opposing increasing education in slavery and colonialism has now been compounded by ignoring the dangers of climate change in favour of pointing out the hypocrisy of individuals.

a picture is being formed.

Edited

I'm sure it is a picture you already have in mind.

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:16

@RebelliousCow you can draw that conclusion if you like where you are unable to evidence your assertions.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:16

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:13

And also clear that many do not want to listen, feel uncomfortable or, more to the point, change in any way.

People are happy to listen - but they don't tend to like moral lectures. Do you?

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:19

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:16

@RebelliousCow you can draw that conclusion if you like where you are unable to evidence your assertions.

This thread is back where it started. Nothing much has been gained. It is understood that you want everyone to know about slavery and about western colonialism and about the oppression of black and asian people - but you don't seem to understand that that is not the issue, in itself, that people have a problem with.

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:21

I am more than happy to read polemics and diatribes to form my own opinions / many textbooks, essays and opinion pieces could be described as moral lectures.

what is problematic about the lack of critical thinking on here is that people are so swayed by the ‘I don’t like you, you are not one of my tribe’ that they are ignoring the insidious creep of hard right viewpoints and agendas (or perhaps share them already although people seem to object rather strenuously to being thought of as Conservative/conservative

Needmoresleep · 10/09/2023 09:24

I have a life membership. Happy to see different places and hear different histories and am happy to have preconceptions challenged, but increasingly I find the world (Guardian, BBC, NT, various subsidised theatres) seems to tell me what I should be thinking.

My last visit was to Kingston Lacey in Dorset. Lovely house and grounds, so met my criteria of an interesting day out. But in every room we heard about the ancestor who was gay and who repeatedly got into trouble because of his interest in young men to the extend he had to flee to Italy. Part of the House's history and an interesting example of how societal attitudes have changed. But did I need to hear this in every room, with elderly female volunteers doing the female "poor man" thing. No consideration of whether his behaviour might have tipped into modern "me too" behaviour even though there were indications of significant power imbalance in his relationships. But far more irritating was the failure to convey anything abut the life of the sister who he left behind to run the house. She was largely invisible in her support-the-man's-vision role, despite she was in charge for decades.

The trouble with highlighting very specific parts of history is that you miss the broader picture and context. It becomes very black and white, when life, either then or now, is nuanced.

My bigger argument with the NT, and why I am a member of the Restore Trust, is that it has become very corporate and lost links with the communities where their properties are located. I have heard first hand stories of estate workers losing their homes in expensive parts of the country so that the tied cottages can become holiday lets. Or a family who had run a popular cafe for decades losing their contract to an expensive chain. Even at a fundamental level the NT cafes are very corporate and no longer have quirky menu items from the local area. Gift shops too. They used to be a place where you could find local jewellery and jams.

I appreciate some will prioritise staff wearing rainbow lanyards and focussing on issues of the day. However part of the learning from seeing a house through history is to learn that things come in waves. Preoccupations of the present will evolve and change. I for one would prefer a lighter touch and more chance to consider and think for myself. (A bit like this thread, which seems at times to suggest that support for Restore Trust means support for slavery. We have seen that sort of simplistic argument in other areas.)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2023 09:25

people seem to object rather strenuously to being thought of as Conservative/conservative

People in "objecting to being categorised as something they aren't" shocker.

ArabeIIaScott · 10/09/2023 09:27

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:21

I am more than happy to read polemics and diatribes to form my own opinions / many textbooks, essays and opinion pieces could be described as moral lectures.

what is problematic about the lack of critical thinking on here is that people are so swayed by the ‘I don’t like you, you are not one of my tribe’ that they are ignoring the insidious creep of hard right viewpoints and agendas (or perhaps share them already although people seem to object rather strenuously to being thought of as Conservative/conservative

Are you happy for people to directly call you stupid, uneducated, old, racist, various other things, and then demand you answer questions and participate in discussion?

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:30

@ArabeIIaScott i made a point on the other thread that the bar for racism is set so much higher than the bar for misogyny.

ArabeIIaScott · 10/09/2023 09:32

Where?

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 09:35

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 09:21

I am more than happy to read polemics and diatribes to form my own opinions / many textbooks, essays and opinion pieces could be described as moral lectures.

what is problematic about the lack of critical thinking on here is that people are so swayed by the ‘I don’t like you, you are not one of my tribe’ that they are ignoring the insidious creep of hard right viewpoints and agendas (or perhaps share them already although people seem to object rather strenuously to being thought of as Conservative/conservative

Ditto : diatribe

Ditto: group think.

You think anything which is in disagreement with your view is 'hard right' - that is totally your own framing device. Be aware of that.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.