National Trust AGM

[PRAMtran]

I’ve received an email from the National Trust inviting me and all other members to vote in their AGM. Does anyone know if there are any things a woman’s rights advocate should vote for or against. Eg TWAW by stealth.

You think racism is just to do with Black and Asian people. You ignore your own racism.

This looks like a well conceived and curated exhibition to me. I think that is incorporated how history is produced, how certain narratives become dominant, and how some aspects of the past get silenced is great. What is your “issue” with it?

https://fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/plan-your-visit/exhibitions/black-atlantic-power-people-resistance

What I meant was “I am not trawling through 850 posts to find the one referring to this”. Is that better? Honestly 🙄

Because there aren’t any - perhaps one at best which has been referenced but no one seems to be able to recall it.

There aren’t “a lot” by any definition.

You think anything which is in disagreement with your view is 'hard right' - that is totally your own framing device. Be aware of that.
Wrong (again). the hard right creep is in direct reference to the influence of Tufton Street.

Why are posters playing Hop Skip Spot The Thread?

Hear hear.

In the past on Mumsnet people used to say 'you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.'
(Of course many flies prefer bullshit - but that's not something I've studied in depth.)

I’m reposting again as apparently this post is now hard to find.

Back to Tufton street.......tedious in the extreme.

Regarding equivalences between misogyny and racism. We all know that thousands upoin thousands of women were persecuted as witches in the past; that women were considered the property of men - in the same we know about the transatlantic slave trade and how black people were given their white master's name and condisered his property.

But we also know that slaves were kept in many countries and societies in the world, not just in white, 'western' society. There is nothing uniquely sinful about white people. We are all human beings with the same range of potentials, whatever our skin colour or cultural background.

Yes, these things happened, and are part of the story of human life on earth and yes, the stories should be told. These stories also go some way to explaining where we are now, and how we got here. Nobody is averse to any of that.

What people are averse to is american social justice activism ( Sorry I'm not going to give a lengthy exposition of that here and now) which has a very particulat flavour and intent. People don't like being force fed any one narrative, which they correctly intuit is meant to shame and have people somehow atone for the sins of their fore-fathers.

Personally, i'm not ashamed of anything in this regard, nor do I feel the need to personally atone. I don't feel "uncomforatble" knowing that slavery existed. What i tend to do fell is reflective on the nature of humanity and the horrible things it can be responsibile for; I can feel empathy for past sufferings. I'm sure most of us do.

@GodessOfThunder
Nobody is saying that slavery is funny. Or that aspects of slavery are funny. You are putting words into people's mouths and managing to wilfully misinterpret what they are saying. You are either, therefore, poor at reading comprehension, enormously blinkered, or actively dishonest. None of these is a good look.

As for the earlier post about CarpetRight (which you reference when saying to me, 'Your research was incomplete'), I didn't find that in particularly good taste. But I read it as the poster observing that it is possible to over-stress certain aspects of a building to the exclusion of other, equally relevant aspects. In any case, the poster was not calling for 'more "humour"' about slavery. So I still find your interpretation disingenuous.

I asked you earlier, 'Could you explain what counts as 'well educated' by your lights and I'll let you know if I measure up?' (p. 30 I think it was) Any chance of a response to that?

And I'm still extremely unimpressed that you were willing to describe those who you see as the other side as 'borderline racists' whilst knowing nothing about us beyond a tiny fraction of what we've posted on MN.

Your attitude is not winning anyone over to your way of thinking. If anything, it is serving to harden division. I find it very difficult to remain open to reasonable points put forward by someone I know despises me. Especially when I have serious doubts about their honesty.

Thank you.

@RebelliousCow

you are ignoring your own racism

so there is a time to stop. And it is now. Deeply entrenched base levels of ignorance at this scale will never shift. You stand side by side with Lawrence Fox. Enough said.

https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/lostinshowbiz/2020/jan/23/want-to-know-what-racism-feels-like-ask-laurence-fox

So you are referring to the “What a World Exhibition” at Penrhyn.

I went to it. I thought it was pretty good and great that it involved the local community.

The castle was built on the proceeds of sugar and the slavery. This isn’t peripheral, it was its entire funding. The castle was given to the NT in 1951. To have an temporary exhibition in place focussing on its links with slavery/plantation agriculture/colonialism for a small fraction of those 70-odd years is perfectly legitimate.

Also, several details in the reviews are factually innacurate. Other information about the property remained available to visitors. And, as above, the slavery/colonialism links are fundamental to the castle and much of its contents’ very existence. This isn’t a modish perversion of its “real” history - it is its origins.

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/visit/wales/penrhyn-castle-and-garden/what-a-world-exhibition-at-penrhyn-castle

@quantumbutterfly
I for one would prefer a lighter touch and more chance to consider and think for myself.
Spot on.

It's the difference between being metaphorically beaten about the head with your own sinfulness and the Love of God by a doorstep evangelical, and watching, over decades, the low-key social activism and deeply caring interpersonal behaviour of devout Christians in your local community.

Sure, I know not all devout Christians are like that, but it is a great joy in my life to know several who are. They're the ones who make me think, 'mebbe there's something in this', whereas the hard-core, preachy, super-virtuous evangelicals I encountered at university sent me running miles in the opposite direction.

In case my post at 9.53 reads like some kind of gotcha it isn’t intended to be. Some posters had stressed that it was important to get the balance right in providing information about a NT property so that one aspect wasn’t prioritized so much that other pertinent information was left out. Godess argued that was a straw man argument as it had never happened. An assertion they repeated so si provided evidence that it wasn’t a straw man argument.
At this point so would expect anyone who was discussing in good faith to say that in that one instance it would seem that the NT got it wrong.

You went to the exhibition Godess? I’m surprised in this long long thread that you hadn’t mentioned it earlier.

Churlish.

I'm still amazed that the willful ignorance here.

Why are people so upset by hearing about history?

All information is worth having in my mind.

Sadly, the slave trade is my family history and I find it fascinating. I'm not going to flinch from it.

A person's education should never be finished, to learn is to live and I cannot comprehend this "don't tell me" attitude.

Nobody has yet to engage with the blatant corruption that is Tufton Street either. Head in the sand while your country becomes increasingly riddled with corruption.

I'm amazed at your eagerness to ascribe motive and feelings to others based on absolutely nothing except your own preconceptions.

This is a really interesting wee article. Factual, with references.

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/visit/wales/penrhyn-castle-and-garden/penrhyn-castle-and-slave-trade-history

Looks like it was probably an interesting exhibition, and I like the method of selecting objects to explore further.

But then, I'm just an uneducated racist old idiot, so I guess it's not aimed at me. Mea culpa.

Where did I do that?

I'm describing what I see. I don't understand the motivations behind it.

Why would anyone not want to know about one of the fundamental building blocks of the modern world?

Vast fortunes were made, big chunks of world economies were built on it, it created entire nations, cultures. The twisted philosophies dreamed up to justify it contain some of the roots of modern racism.

Why would you not want to know about that?

You have repeatedly attributed other posters' feedback on the quality of current NT exhibits/displays etc to the posters holding "small c conservative attitudes". The implication has been that their feedback can be safely disregarded because of that.

You've also claimed it's because they're middle-class, old enough to have grandchildren, and poorly-educated. Some other stuff as well, but I CBA to scroll back for all of it. Again, the implication is that the NT can safely ignore their opinions.

Really? So who is the typical NT member then? I don't do anything so lofty as "work in heritage", being far too poorly educated for that, but how sure are you that NT members aren't largely middle-class, older or conservative?

If you alienate them all, who do you envisage taking out memberships instead? Millennials? Gen Z?

I'm a working class millennial, complete with avocados in the fridge and blue hair dye in the bathroom. Housing costs now account for 50% of my post-tax income, and I've chopped all unnecessary direct debits. Yet I am in a very fortunate position compared to my peergroup. The chance of any of us taking out NT memberships is marginal, to say the least.

As for the rest of your accusations, I think you should give that strawman a cuddle. He looks unhappy.

'Why would you not want to know about that?'

Where do you get the impression I dont want to know about slavery?

This is exactly what I mean about ascribing notications and feelings.

I have no idea what you want

I'm describing what I've seen on this thread.

Who has said that they don't want to hear about slavery at all? I haven't seen that. Therefore these are misrepresentations of people's views, seemingly based on what people perceive as your unwillingness to listen, and that's why people are objecting.