National Trust AGM

[PRAMtran]

I’ve received an email from the National Trust inviting me and all other members to vote in their AGM. Does anyone know if there are any things a woman’s rights advocate should vote for or against. Eg TWAW by stealth.

Yes. I have no objection to learning about the history of the building, and where it fits within English history. However is education always the primary reason for visiting? Do you never have relatives suggest somewhere where the kids can have a good run around in the grounds and you all enjoy a nice cup of tea with a bit of education thrown in?

There is no "primary reason" to visit. We visit for all of the reasons you list.

How do you go anywhere and not learn about the place? Not just NT places, but anywhere?

After reading so far I’m soo glad I voted for the Restore Trust recommendations .
I’m appalled but not surprised that someone in the heritage sector with a professional PhD is so blinkered and aggressive.
You should really be using this thread as a wake up call.
And I say that as someone who various posters on here would look down on for my academic non achievements.
I do not appreciate my opinions being rubbished and being patronised.

And this history of slavery is the history of the actions of a helluva lot of white people too- not just the lords and ladies in the big houses.

...which is probably in keeping with Octavia Hill's original vision for the trust.

I have said I am perfectly happy to learn. The problem with my last visit (to Kingston Lacey) was the harping on and on about historic homosexuality laws by the guide in every room. Yes, it is part of the history of the house, but there is probably so much more. That part of Dorset used to be incredibly poor. The Museum in Dorchester takes you through the lives of Dorset people from the stone age and is fascinating. What about the estate workers? Was life tough for them, or were they relatively well treated. What about the sister who ran the house when her brother absconded. What about the ethics of him travelling the Mediterranean collecting antiquities and sending them back to Blighty. My take away was that the NT themselves did not have a handle on a wider picture, only their narrow focus. And were more interested in educating me than meeting me half way as a paying visitor.

That said, my bigger concern is the way they treat local workers and local communities. I am also concerned about the merry-go-round of the new Establishment as they switch from one highly paid sinecure to another (Lottery Fund, various charities, HoL, BBC etc). It would be nice so see some of the current assumptions questioned and perhaps the directions of major national organisations refocussed to be closer in line with the views and priorities of the population. I hope the Restore Trust succeed.

But they are Tufton Street, funded by oil money and will do none of the things you want. They're more likely to start fracking the land (seriously) than anything else.

It sounds far fetched but it really, really isn't.

I would be very interested to hear more. There were of course many white people involved in many ways. Are we you referring plantation managers and their underlings? Ie those directly complicit or widening it out to cover those whose fought in the American civil wars both North and South?
or even wider - to cotton mill owners or the children who worked in the factories? The people who campaigned and fought to end the slave trade. It’s a huge topic isn’t it? Who should tell the stories- the abusers or the abused?
Is the NT the right organisation to tell this history?

Honestly this feels like the Brexit campaign- they called it "project fear" and it's now project reality.

I wonder if there's always a tendency to think that there is a progressive march of history - implying that we, the current humans, always know best and are (or can be) on the Right Side of History (if properly educated).

The problem to me seems losing sight of a bit of humility; acknowledging the blind spots, gaps in our knowledge and unconscious biases. All history is political and partisan and prejudiced.

Perhaps there's even a bit of projection onto others - we probably all sense in some way that it's impossible to ever know and understand a topic comprehensively (if we have any self awareness), and if one is very uncomfortable with that it's perhaps more comfortable to project our Shadow onto the unwashed, uneducated, non-critical thinking Wrong Sorts.

I have thought several times through this thread that I could hear echoes of the dynamics of Brexit. Not least the undercurrent of 'why won't you thick arseholes do as I say' being the method of large chunks of the Remain campaign.

Good place to start:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b063db18

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

I think it’s been demonstrated on this thread though, that this is overwhelmingly an imagined issue. No one has provided a named example of “obvious connections” being explored “at the expense of other equally as important” contexts on a permanent basis at an NT property. It was claimed this was the case at Penrhyn, but other aspects of the house’s story were very much still displayed.

Temporary exhibitions may be a source of confusion/contest. If someone visits a property/gallery during a temporary exhibition, such as at Penrhyn, or at the Fitzwilliam, or during the NT’s “Pride and Prejudice” programme which ran in summer 2017, then they may gain the impression of displacement. But, the chances are their preferred “context” will get its day in the sun too. Not every theme has to be played out all at the same time, and, as we increasingly realise history is not singular, but many “histories”, then revolving themes make sense alongside a foundation of basic information about the property.

Also, consider this: other “contexts” will likely have been explored over decades at a property. Why shouldn’t balance be restored by prioritising giving some new contexts their moment in the sun?

As I mentioned above, I think one major issue is that many people don’t understand that slavery and colonialism are their histories too, rather than some niche minority/Black/SJW” history. And, it’s a topic that has shaped huge swathes of the world and continues to do so today. Often it’s of more historical importance than alternatives, but people don’t know this (yet).

Regarding your local gallery, is the exhibition temporary or permanent? What’s the theme? What type of work and artists are on display? To reply I need to have some context.

Dear Godess, I did and at your request named the property. In a later post I have suggested things I would have liked to have seen covered. You did not acknowledge.

If a party is set to broadcast, not receive, it can be hard to have a conversation, can't it?

The temporary exhibition at Penrhyn ran from 2019-2022 according to the NT website so quite a long time really.

Not least the undercurrent of 'why won't you thick arseholes do as I say' being the method of large chunks of the Remain campaign.
That made me laugh, if you're allowed to do that here

Pretty sure laughter is on the prohibited list 😆

Credible contemporary historians would argue (with good reason) the exact opposite. History is not a “progressive march” to anything. It’s impossible for it to be so as history has no telos.

You’re barking up the wrong tree there as a critique of myself or most other working historians (a few fringe orthodox Marxists aside).

“The problem to me seems losing sight of a bit of humility; acknowledging the blind spots, gaps in our knowledge and unconscious biases.“

Yes, I agree. This is one reason (along with a lack of education) that many people think slavery and colonialism are a niche concern only relating to POC/people in former colonies/a few wealthy people. Not so: its influence touched pretty much everyone in Britain in one way or another.

The problem is that if a large number of the NT membership don't feel that they are being heard, they either leave or look to someone to provide them with a voice.

If Datum and Godess feel that the Restore are BAD people, perhaps they could lobby current NT leaders to pay heed to the sort of issues raised that clearly resonate amongst the membership.

This is a very perplexing thread. People were civilly discussing what they liked/disliked about NT visits, including the available information not being as good as at English Heritage sites, and then two posters arrived declaring there was shocking and wilful ignorance on the thread. After that it never recovered and the OP’s question was pretty much ignored.

Actually, one poster was already shouting Tufton St! but the nasty jibes about ignorance came a bit later.

Indeed fig and if one asks for clarification (seek first to understand and then be understood) then it’s ignored so any chance of gaining a better understanding is lost.

during the NT’s “Pride and Prejudice” programme which ran in summer 2017
Have they done similar about
The life and work of ag labs/servants on the big estates?
Construction techniques differing by region/ introduced from abroad/ architects?
Landscaping including the removal of villages to improve the view/ construction of follies/ redirection of watercourses?
And so on.

If they have, then good. If they haven't, then the focus on the social justice topics is pushing other things out.