Page 34 | National Trust AGM

PRAMtran · 2023-09-04T12:59:37+00:00

I’ve received an email from the National Trust inviting me and all other members to vote in their AGM. Does anyone know if there are any things a woman’s rights advocate should vote for or against. Eg TWAW by stealth.

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 07:38

@TheirEminence
i don’t disagree with anything you have written - including very careful wording in relation to NT’s intent being alleged rather than evidenced.

which brings us back round to the Tufton Street power grab. Cleverly designed to capture the votes of non-critical thinkers opposed to ideology and sentiment and not fact and evidence.

Pencil’s uninformed view is that Restore Trust and Tufton Street is nothing more than guilt by association. Don’t believe it. At the heart of the RT is someone with 3 powerful climate change denial organisations funded by dark money.

It couldn’t be clearer which side has the political agenda.

Cailleach1 · 10/09/2023 07:43

Indeed. And, every single poster on the interweb may be part of modern day exploitation of the weak and powerless. We may be using technology manufactured by slave or slave live labour. Right here, right now.

Much easier for performers of virtue to focus on long ago whereby they can remain sanctimonious without cost, and perform adjusting their halo. And it won't do a thing to improve the life or living condition of a single person alive today.

Just shout 'Tufton Street' until blue in the face, whilst merrily utilising technology possibly made by forced/slave labour.

Barbadossunset · 10/09/2023 07:45

If Lord X’s economic activities are currently said to include investing in local mining and land holdings.

Godess - So the NT also includes information about the present Lord X’s economic activities, even though the NT owns the property and not him?

Cailleach1 · 10/09/2023 07:47

Oops, Had meant to refer to anyolddinosaur's post below;

Cant imagine there was any NT property that wasnt built from exploiting the poor and powerless. Of course no-one should be hiding that slavery contributed to that but I'd like to see proper balance about their exploitation of people in general.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2023 07:48

Personally I think making jokes about how the history of slavery is represented and in the middle of a discussion about it, call for more humour (in the topic or life) to be highly distasteful.

Well I guess we're all different. This is a general discussion about heritage, which was originally about trans rights activism but hijacked. In my experience though, people who preach to their betters are some of the most humourless, unpleasant people I've ever come across, and really need to understand how to actually engage with people, if it's not simply about pompously scolding them.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2023 07:49

Much easier for performers of virtue to focus on long ago whereby they can remain sanctimonious without cost, and perform adjusting their halo. And it won't do a thing to improve the life or living condition of a single person alive today.

Just shout 'Tufton Street' until blue in the face, whilst merrily utilising technology possibly made by forced/slave labour.

Great point.

GodessOfThunder · 10/09/2023 07:51

TheirEminence · 10/09/2023 07:08

I think this thread is fast reaching its natural end but I will respond to this from GoT:

*As I’ve mentioned several times, Including this in information is a matter of accuracy.

Small c conservative attitudes might make make some feel uncomfortable with this, but the NT exists to “look after history” not to pretend events didn’t happen, censure them for delicate sensibilities, or ignore the latest biographical research into how it’s properties came to be built.*

Two things:
If history were only about ‘accuracy’, then there would be very few history books. In any narrative about the past, something will always be left out as it is simply not possible to reproduce everything in one story. All history is partial, and there is no neutral position of total accuracy that can be used as a yardstick. To assume this is historically naive.

Having read the thread, I am confident that the vast majority of posters (I would say all but I’m being careful) support including information on links to slavery in NT materials where they apply to a specific property, and that is probably because in our current historical moment, in which Britain is reckoning with its role in the world and a rapidly diversifying society (including many more British people who are mixed-race/ethnicity) this is regarded as very important.

What some posters seem to disagree with - returning to the starting point of the thread - is a) the NT’s alleged attempt to enforce a very narrow point of view, to the exclusion of other relevant narratives, b) the misrepresentation of history (example: cotton tapestries) and c) a contemptuous attitude towards NT members and audiences who are assumed to be ignorant and resistant to new interpretations, even though sometimes they might actually accurately point out misinterpretations or missing context (again, the tapestry example is brilliant as it pointed to the technological origins of the cotton boom, leading to a better understanding of slavery as an institution).

Finally, even though I support encouraging historical awareness, the way to do this is to appeal to the imagination, encourage audiences to ask questions, meet them were they are, not present history as a morality tale. And it seems from the support RT are getting that the NT risks alienating some of its audience - a dangerous place for a national institution, there for everybody.

Some time ago, I visited the historic house of a famous white male and the one exhibit I remember best is that relating to his wife and the many children she bore over more than two decades. This was the reality for many women in the past and caused huge physical strain, added to by the emotional strain of not many children surviving. Not my experience but I could relate to it. Am I a bad person now for remembering this and not something else?

Sorry for long post.

Quibbles in my first response aside though, I think you have created a reasonable summary of some people’s concerns.

I’m glad to see you use the word “perceived”. This thread has seen accusations of slavery-related narratives “crowding out” other perspectives or being “shoehorned” into displays. Yet not one single real world Instance of this at a NT property has been shared.

Yes, there is an art to changing people’s perspectives and it often has little in common with what happens in internet discussion.

GodessOfThunder · 10/09/2023 07:57

Barbadossunset · 10/09/2023 07:45

If Lord X’s economic activities are currently said to include investing in local mining and land holdings.

Godess - So the NT also includes information about the present Lord X’s economic activities, even though the NT owns the property and not him?

I’m referring to the original funder of the building

GodessOfThunder · 10/09/2023 08:02

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2023 07:49

Much easier for performers of virtue to focus on long ago whereby they can remain sanctimonious without cost, and perform adjusting their halo. And it won't do a thing to improve the life or living condition of a single person alive today.

Just shout 'Tufton Street' until blue in the face, whilst merrily utilising technology possibly made by forced/slave labour.

Great point.

Er….but two of the most vocal posters arguing against you actually work in the heritage sector. It’s literally their job to focus on “long ago”.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2023 08:04

You and your heritage sector friends keep quoting my "yes" and "great points" challenging me, but not the posters who actually wrote the posts. Odd.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/09/2023 08:07

The post was clearly speaking in a general sense about the types of people who are drawn to scolding people for their original sin.

We never did find out what you thought the poster should focus on in the Bible rather than make mildly humorous remarks on Mumsnet.

narniabusiness · 10/09/2023 08:09

GodessOfThunder · 10/09/2023 07:51

Quibbles in my first response aside though, I think you have created a reasonable summary of some people’s concerns.

I’m glad to see you use the word “perceived”. This thread has seen accusations of slavery-related narratives “crowding out” other perspectives or being “shoehorned” into displays. Yet not one single real world Instance of this at a NT property has been shared.

Yes, there is an art to changing people’s perspectives and it often has little in common with what happens in internet discussion.

Edited

Show quote history

‘yet not one real world instance of this happening at a NT property has been shared’
I have shared a real life instance more than once and I’ve tagged you in. Yet you’ve refused to acknowledge it. Again.

GodessOfThunder · 10/09/2023 08:12

narniabusiness · 10/09/2023 08:09

‘yet not one real world instance of this happening at a NT property has been shared’
I have shared a real life instance more than once and I’ve tagged you in. Yet you’ve refused to acknowledge it. Again.

Show quote history

Which specific NT property does it concern?

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 08:12

Oh @narniabusiness posting trip advisor reviews as evidence……?

And noting that this was a temporary exhibition not the permanent exhibit. So presumably visitors could see the title and read what it was all about and then decide whether to view it or not?

Are you actually swayed by this?

maltravers · 10/09/2023 08:19

If it’s the post I’m thinking of (there have been a lot!) it’s evidence real life people object to being forcefed ideological thinking at NT properties so quite on point in fact.

Sausagenbacon · 10/09/2023 08:24

Maybe it's too early in the morning, but I've reread this
Cleverly designed to capture the votes of non-critical thinkers opposed to ideology and sentiment and not fact and evidence.
Several times and can't understand it.
But what comes through loud and clear is a 'we know best' attitude (along with a good dose of 'how very DARE you question us' fir good measure).

GodessOfThunder · 10/09/2023 08:24

maltravers · 10/09/2023 08:19

If it’s the post I’m thinking of (there have been a lot!) it’s evidence real life people object to being forcefed ideological thinking at NT properties so quite on point in fact.

“A lot”? Really?

In that case you will be able to share a couple of them.

narniabusiness · 10/09/2023 08:28

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 08:12

Oh @narniabusiness posting trip advisor reviews as evidence……?

And noting that this was a temporary exhibition not the permanent exhibit. So presumably visitors could see the title and read what it was all about and then decide whether to view it or not?

Are you actually swayed by this?

What other evidence of visitors reactions to visiting a NT house would you find compelling? I picked out two reviews as an example. There were more.
The exhibition was an installation which occupied the whole property. It wasn’t a one room display which could be bypassed. The reviews make it quite clear that the visitors were not complaining that the exhibition was about the property’s connections to slavery but that it excluded any other information about the property.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 08:28

TheHoover · 09/09/2023 21:14

*I recall, age 10, being asked to draw an image of a slave ship - with details of how the captured were chained up in rows like cargo. We learned of the term 'trianagular trade', and what it involved.

I used to be an English teacher ( believe it or not due to my tendency for typos. ) and way back we were teaching poetry and novels which were rooted in the black experienece, including slavery and apartheid in South Africa. We read Maya Angelou, Alice Walker, Toni Morrison.

I recall in the the late 1970's reading Alan Paton's. 'Cry The Beloved Country' in an English class.

The idea that slavery and oppression has been omitted from the curriculum is partisan fantasy*

@RebelliousCow you seem to have unilaterally decided that education to this point has been more than sufficient and any further is pushing a political agenda. This is really quite a strong position. Is there any further scope for listening to others’ opinion on this, particularly those of African and Asian heritage?

I haven't suggested that learning about slavery and the black experience stops at some point, and then ceases to be discussed. I was illustrating how the curriculum has not disappeared the issues in the way that some suggest.

It is surely racist to think that all people of African or Asian heritage think alike. They don't. And it is also a bit of a stretch to suggest that disagreeing with certain positions held by someone of African or Asian heritage is racist and/or somehow insensitive. I explained to you earlier how I think Intersectionalism has been reduced to sentiments such as that - and i reject it.

There are plenty of Black and Asian writers whose works I have read and appreciated; and I continue to do so. But I read ( and recommend) what I think I'll find enjoyable and interesting. I don't read stuff just because someone is of African or Asian heritage. How ridiculous would that be.

Making race central to everything is surely itself racist.

GodessOfThunder · 10/09/2023 08:28

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 08:12

Oh @narniabusiness posting trip advisor reviews as evidence……?

And noting that this was a temporary exhibition not the permanent exhibit. So presumably visitors could see the title and read what it was all about and then decide whether to view it or not?

Are you actually swayed by this?

Hey - which property is this in reference to?

If this is the one and only supposed instance of slavery related information “crowding out” other perspectives, guess I need to check it out.

ArabeIIaScott · 10/09/2023 08:30

Sausagenbacon · 10/09/2023 08:24

Maybe it's too early in the morning, but I've reread this
Cleverly designed to capture the votes of non-critical thinkers opposed to ideology and sentiment and not fact and evidence.
Several times and can't understand it.
But what comes through loud and clear is a 'we know best' attitude (along with a good dose of 'how very DARE you question us' fir good measure).

For me the issue is cartoonifying people into simplistic pre-prepared categories.

'Non critical thinkers' - just an adaptation of earlier posters calling us stupid presented with a faux polite veneer.

Most humans are complex, and sometimes have knee jerk responses and sometimes come up with thoughtful ideas. Often depends on context.

It has the ring to me of teachers writing kids off as 'thick' because they are unable to connect with or discipline a class.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 08:33

PencilsInSpace · 09/09/2023 22:00

Thank you @EdithStourton I couldn't work out what that referred to.

I agree the lack of a sense of humour from the patronising scolds is very sad and I don't think it can be good for their mental health.

It's possible to think that and also not think that slavery is funny. And also to think that the misrepresentation of that post is quite shocking and revealing.

Yes, the wilful ellision of whole sentences and contexts in order to arrive at the point you intend to make.

RebelliousCow · 10/09/2023 08:33

elision

TheHoover · 10/09/2023 08:35

@narniabusiness the point being that a temporary exhibition that has been specially curated will have been designed to meet the brief of that exhibition rather than include other things that someone expects to see.

But yes, you have indeed evidenced that people don’t like being reminded of unpleasant facts.Something which didn’t actually need evidencing.

BurnToastAgain · 10/09/2023 08:38

Hello everyone 🤗 I’m feeling happy today. I’m going out for lunch with some good friends. They all have a sense of humour so I’m sure we’ll have a great time.

Sorry if I’ve used terms above that some posters won’t be able to understand. I’ve got a train to catch but I can recommend looking up the words “happy”, “friends” and “sense of humour” for anyone who’s not encountered these things in real life 🫤