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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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19
RainWithSunnySpells · 05/09/2023 13:11

"Yet, there are peer reviewed studies that show that these experimental treatment do not improve the long term mental health and in some cases, cause worse mental health and physical health outcomes."

I would be interested in looking at those studies. Could the links be posted please?

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 13:20

I have a link to hand for a study that could not show an improvement in mental health outcomes after treatment.

I don't have to hand studies of the others that I can easily access. I will go and look for them. What we do have is clinician commentary that I can quickly find about how some patients experience worse outcomes when they realise that the treatments they fully believed would help them, did not and they now were still suffering poor mental health but now coping with a modified body as well. I will come back with the links. I am about to leave my desk and will see if I have time to get back with other links later.

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 13:23

The discredited study where a Yale researcher tried to convince the world that gender treatments improve mental health of transitioners.

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.2019.19010080

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/?fbclid=IwAR1qhY36S81bxLIL-Gm04MemcwA8R0OBpG5iCy_CrUM6tGttrO98Un-WLTE

A major correction has been issued by the American Journal of Psychiatry. The authors and editors of an October 2019 study, titled “Reduction in mental health treatment utilization among transgender individuals after gender-affirming surgeries: a total population study,” have retracted its primary conclusion. Letters to the editor by twelve authors, including ourselves, led to a reanalysis of the data and a corrected conclusion stating that in fact the data showed no improvement after surgical treatment. The following is the background to our published letter and a summary of points of the critical analysis of the study.

Correction: Transgender Surgery Provides No Mental Health Benefit

The American Journal of Psychiatry has issued a major correction to a recent study. The Bränström study reanalysis demonstrated that neither “gender-affirming hormone treatment” nor “gender-affirming surgery” reduced the need of transgender-identifying...

https://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2020/09/71296/?fbclid=IwAR1qhY36S81bxLIL-Gm04MemcwA8R0OBpG5iCy_CrUM6tGttrO98Un-WLTE

RainWithSunnySpells · 05/09/2023 13:23

Thank you. 🙂

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 13:24

Actually, this one may be of use rainy

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33663938/

Surgical Outcomes Following Gender Affirming Penile Reconstruction: Patient-Reported Outcomes From a Multi-Center, International Survey of 129 Transmasculine Patients

Isabel S Robinson et al. J Sex Med. 2021 Apr

Of the 1,212 patients completing the survey, 129 patients underwent genital reconstruction surgery. Seventy-nine patients (61 percent) underwent phalloplasty only, 32 patients (25 percent) underwent metoidioplasty only, and 18 patients (14 percent) underwent metoidioplasty followed by phalloplasty.

Results: Patients reported 281 complications requiring 142 revisions. The most common complications were urethrocutaneous fistula (n = 51, 40 percent), urethral stricture (n = 41, 32 percent), and worsened mental health (n = 25, 19 percent).

These results support anecdotal reports that complication rates following gender affirming genital reconstruction are higher than are commonly reported in the surgical literature. Patients undergoing clitoris burial in addition to primary phalloplasty did not report a change in erogenous sensation relative to those patients not undergoing clitoris burial. Postoperative patients report improved genital self-image relative to their preoperative counterparts, although self-image scores remain lower than cisgender males.

Note that 19% suffered worsened mental health after the procedure.

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 13:28

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 13:05

It isn't relevant because we are discussing experimental treatments to which there is currently not one skerrick of evidence that those treatments improve a person's mental health outcomes, yet is based only on their diagnosis of a mental health outcome - gender dysphoria.

In discussing reconstructive outcomes, to make it 'relevant' you need to take it back to the initial health issue it was addressing. You have simply plonked something down that is about breast reconstruction as if you plonking it down makes it relevant.

"And using that fact to deny patients treatment on the basis that a small minority later go on to regret the treatment also doesn't stack up."

Please produce the evidence that the treatment you are here attempting to shame us for discussing is improving the mental health of the patients that are undergoing it in the long term.

Do you have any? No? Yet, there are peer reviewed studies that show that these experimental treatment do not improve the long term mental health and in some cases, cause worse mental health and physical health outcomes.

Edited

There is only one study that I am aware of that concludes no evidence of improvement, and two that are often purported to show disimprovement. But the latter two doesn't actually show what is often claimed, because their comparator cohorts aren't trans people who didn't have surgery, but rather the the general population.

By contrast, your claim that there is "not one skerrick of evidence that those treatments improve a person's mental health outcomes" is just wrong.

There are at least 23 peer review studies concluding at least some reductions in negative outcomes associated with gender dysphoria. And that's just dealing with surgery.

Expand the research to cover broader gender affirming care such as cross-sex hormones, and the evidence of benefits are even stronger.

OldCrone · 05/09/2023 13:35

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 11:26

I wouldn't be performing any surgery, since I'm not a medical professional.

But doctors who are suitably qualified making decisions with their patients is between them. There are standards doctors must adhere to in terms of providing sound advice and being clear on risks. The option is open to any patient who feels they have not been treated with due care and standards to sue for medical negligence.

A history of trauma, or ongoing mental health difficulties, do not remove someone's capacity to consent to medical treatment, or to understand risks. It's really, really dangerous and offensive to go down the route of suggesting that medically indicated treatments should be withheld on the basis that someone's depression, or ADHD, renders them incapable of consenting.

But thanks for clarifying that yes, the approach now seems to be that all gender affirming surgery, even on adults with capacity to consent, should be withheld.

A history of trauma, or ongoing mental health difficulties, do not remove someone's capacity to consent to medical treatment, or to understand risks. It's really, really dangerous and offensive to go down the route of suggesting that medically indicated treatments should be withheld on the basis that someone's depression, or ADHD, renders them incapable of consenting.

We are discussing here treatments which are experimental and there is no evidence that they are 'medically indicated'. They are treatments which are being carried out because there is a belief amongst some doctors and some patients that such treatments will alleviate the mental health symptoms which the patient is experiencing.

What makes these treatments 'medically indicated'? Where is the evidence?

And I notice that you failed to answer Helleofabore's other questions:

Would you remove limbs from a 26 year old who couldn’t reconcile that their body part was indeed theirs? yes? No?

Would you affirm a 26 year old person with anorexia who considered themselves ‘fat’ when they had little body fat or muscle left on their body? Yes? No?

What is your answer to these questions? Yes or no?

OldCrone · 05/09/2023 13:36

There are at least 23 peer review studies concluding at least some reductions in negative outcomes associated with gender dysphoria. And that's just dealing with surgery.

Links?

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 13:39

This was one paper rainy, I have to go and search for the others.

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/freedom-to-think-the-need-for-thorough-assessment-and-treatment-of-gender-dysphoric-children/F4B7F5CAFC0D0BE9FF3C7886BA6E904B

Evans said: During the 1980s, I led a parasuicide service in King's College Hospital, London, and treated a number of individuals who had self-harmed or attempted suicide after gender reassignment surgery. These patients had a history of serious and enduring mental illness and/or a personality disorder. Having developed a late-onset gender dysphoria, they were often angry at the loss of their biological sexual functioning and aggrieved with psychiatric services, which they felt had failed to examine their motivations for requesting reassignment surgery and/or to adequately investigate their psychological difficulties. A common theme in their presentations was a belief that physical treatments would remove or resolve aspects of themselves that caused them psychic pain. When the medical intervention failed to remove these psychological problems, the disappointment led to an escalation of self-harm and suicidal ideation, as resentment and hatred towards themselves were acted out in relation to their bodies.

Interestingly, he also says this:

Second, it is clearly vital that consent be fully explored. For example it will be important to gauge how much understanding the individual has of the implications of medical and surgical treatment. If an individual has no concern at all about the prospect and outcomes, this lack of concern should be thought of as a symptom that needs to be investigated and understood, rather than being treated superficially as a positive indication of their motivation.

and this

James Caspian, a psychotherapist with considerable experience of working with transgender patients, has described his sudden realisation of the increasing number of patients who regretted the sexual reassignment they had undertaken. In 2019, he wrote that he had been contacted by more than 50 patients in the preceding 2 years. However, his proposal to carry out a formal research project to investigate this phenomenon was rejected by his university department for fear of a backlash.

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 13:43

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 13:28

There is only one study that I am aware of that concludes no evidence of improvement, and two that are often purported to show disimprovement. But the latter two doesn't actually show what is often claimed, because their comparator cohorts aren't trans people who didn't have surgery, but rather the the general population.

By contrast, your claim that there is "not one skerrick of evidence that those treatments improve a person's mental health outcomes" is just wrong.

There are at least 23 peer review studies concluding at least some reductions in negative outcomes associated with gender dysphoria. And that's just dealing with surgery.

Expand the research to cover broader gender affirming care such as cross-sex hormones, and the evidence of benefits are even stronger.

Link them up! Let's look at them.

How strange that there are regularly reviews of these studies and still regulatory organisations are declaring these are experimental procedures and no conclusive evidence of improvements.

I look very much forward to being proven wrong when I read your studies.

Please make sure that they are fully accessible by the way, because otherwise you might have simply done a google search and not actually reviewed those studies in full detail.

MargotBamborough · 05/09/2023 13:45

@PlanetJanette I can't think of a single other procedure which is comparable to gender affirming treatment, for a variety of reasons.

Firstly, although I believe gender dysphoria is no longer officially classed as a mental health disorder and that to suggest that it is one is now considered offensive to many trans people, it is still the case that these treatments are physical treatments, designed to bring about physical changes in the body, to treat a condition that only exists in the mind (the feeling that one should have been born in an opposite sexed body). Before undergoing hormone therapy or surgery, trans people might be incredibly distressed, but their bodies and reproductive organs are ordinary and unremarkable. After the hormones and surgery, the trans person may or may not feel happier from a psychological point of view, but their bodies are objectively less healthy than they were before. Anyone who has undergone "bottom surgery" is now permanently infertile. Anyone who has undergone a mastectomy will never be able to breastfeed. They may be completely fine with this, welcome it even, but from objective standpoint their bodies are less functional than they were before and the risk of side effects and complications is high. I cannot think of a single other medical procedure where the treatment for a problem which only exists in the mind is to cause deliberate damage to the previously healthy body. That makes gender affirmation treatment unique in this respect.

I would argue that this distinction stands even when compared with cosmetic surgery. Whilst you can argue that someone with body dysmorphia has a problem which only exists in their mind (e.g. their nose is too crooked or their breasts are too small and this is causing them distress), there is still an identifiable physical "problem" which the surgery aims to correct.

That said, I do think that some cosmetic surgeons are also failing their patients. I believe that Katie Price's surgeons, for example, have failed in their duty of care towards an obviously mentally unwell woman by continuing to perform ever more drastic surgeries on her.

And here we touch on the intersection between transgender healthcare, cosmetic surgery and mental health comorbidities. As other posters have noted, the fact that such a disproportionate number of people identifying as trans have either diagnosed conditions such as autism or ADHD, eating disorders, substance abuse issues, are same sex attracted, have been abused and/or have grown up in the care system should give us pause for thought. More than that. It should make us slam the brakes on and only proceed with the very greatest caution. If a patient presenting as having a transgender identity has none of the above issues, if, during multiple sessions with an experienced and diligent professional who is satisfied that none of the above things apply to this person and that the only "problem" is their gender dysphoria, OK, let's discuss how best to alleviate that. But if even one or those red flags is present, the focus should be on getting right to the bottom of that and getting the patient help for that, before the gender identity issue is addressed.

But this is not done. In some countries it is even illegal, considered to be conversion therapy, and only the affirmative approach is permitted. This is clearly a huge safeguarding failure.

Even professionals operating within a system where proper explorative therapy is allowed, often there is a race against the clock because the patient is a child who is preoccupied with getting hormone treatment before they have gone through the "wrong puberty" and their life is ruined forever. No therapist wants to be the one who took five years to diligently work through all a patient's issues and eventually conclude that yes, they really are transgender and the best course of action is hormones and surgery, only for the patient to turn round and say, "Well fuck you very much. You're only telling me what I told you when I was 12, except that now I'm 17, I've gone through puberty and have no hope of ever passing now. Thanks for ruining my life."

And that leads us to the final way in which this treatment is not comparable to any other treatment, in that the patients are usually very young. In the case of patients seeking puberty blockers, they may still be primary school age. Very few will be over the age of 25 or so, which is the age the prefrontal cortex is more or less fully developed. So these patients, as a class, and even without any mental health comorbidities, are more vulnerable than most other patients due to their age. That's not to say that a woman in her 40s seeking a fifth breast augmentation can't be vulnerable. Of course she can be. But she might not be. She might know exactly what she wants and understand the consequences of her decision, including all the possible negative outcomes. But the vast majority of transgender patients ARE vulnerable, simply due to their age. If a minor were undergoing any other kind of experimental treatment it would ultimately be up their parent or guardian to inform themselves, weigh up the risks and the benefits, and make a decision on behalf of the child. But because what we are talking about here is the child's subjectively experienced gender identity, the usual rules do not apply. In addition, different roles may be played by their parent, depending on the circumstances and where they live. Some minor patients might have a parent who is actively pushing them towards being transgender, e.g. sad cases like Jackie Green. Alternatively, some minor patients might live in a country where their parents are literally banned from trying to talk them out of it, at risk of them being taken into care. Again, no other area of medicine is really comparable here.

So yes, in my view anyone claiming a transgender identity should, on the basis of the large and growing body of evidence available, be considered vulnerable until proven otherwise, and heightened safeguarding should be in place.

OldCrone · 05/09/2023 13:46

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 12:43

The point is that if it was the case that doctors were routinely failing their patients who then regret their decisions, don't you think we'd see at least some court judgments to that effect?

So there's two possibilities here:

(a) there are a small cohort of people who - like with many other treatments - regret their decision and conclude later that the decision was the wrong one for them (despite doctors doing all they reasonably should to maximise the chances of the correct decision); or

(b) doctors are failing to uphold standards on a widespread basis.

If it was (b) then we'd expect to see lots of medical negligence cases and we'd expect to see them won. The fact that we are not - in the same way that we are not seeing lots of medical negligence cases for breast reconstruction surgery - suggests that (a) is a more plausible explanation than (b).

This is all very recent. The vast increase in numbers of children being referred to gender clinics, in particular teenage girls, and receiving this treatment has been happening for less than 10 years. It takes time for those girls to reach adulthood and really understand what has been done to them. Chloe Cole's case in the US is one of the first.

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 14:06

Of course you've now resorted to cherry picking individual studies.

Psychosocial well-being improved significantly post-GAS (31.3 preoperatively to 78.9 postoperatively, p<.001). • Physical well-being improved significantly post-GAS (65.3 to 80.3, p<.001). • Improvements also seen in global severity index (2.68 to 1.20, p<.001), body image concerns (3.49 to 1.33, p<.001), social avoidance behavior (2.51 to 0.74, p<.0001), compulsive self-monitoring (1.62 to 1.25, p<.001), depersonalization (2.35 to 0.82, p<.0001).

The MH QoL of trans women without surgical intervention was significantly lower compared to the general population (p<.05). • MH QoL scores were not significantly different between trans women who had GAS (49.3) and general female population (48.9). • Trans women who had GAS had higher MH related QoL then their non-surgical counterparts.

Patients reported better QoL after GAS. • A prospective QoL study in trans men showed significant improvements post GAS, and 91% of trans women reported improvements in QoL after vaginoplasty. • QoL was shown to improve after chest wall masculinizing surgery. • 71% of patients undergoing penile inversion vaginoplasty agree that their GD has resolved as a result of the surgery • An increasing number of GAS procedures are associated with a greater degree of improvement in GD. • Vaginoplasty has been shown to significantly decrease depression and anxiety in trans women • GAS has shown a greater reduction in depression and suicidality versus isolated hormone therapy.

After adjusting for sociodemographic factors and exposure to other types of gender-affirming care, GAS was associated with lower past-month psychological distress (aOR, 0.58; 95% CI, 0.50-0.67; p<.001) and past-year suicidal ideation (aOR, 0.56; 95% CI, 0.50-0.64; p<.001) when compared to trans individuals with no history of GAS. • Those who had undergone all desired GAS had significant reductions in the odds of each adverse mental health outcome and the reductions were more profound than those who had only received some of their desired GAS.

GD decreased post-GAS (p<.001). • Post-GAS, individuals were similar to general Dutch population in terms of objective well-being. • Psychological functioning improved steadily over time, resulting in rates of clinical problems that are indistinguishable from general population samples. • QoL, satisfaction with life, and subjective happiness scores are comparable to same age peers.

Transgender individuals pre-GAS were hospitalized for psychiatric morbidity four times more often than controls. • Post-GAS, that rate dropped to three times as likely (19 cases in the transgender group and 4.2 cases in the control group).

GAS was positively associated with MH (p<.01). • GAS was positively associated with life satisfaction (p<.01). • Authors suggest that transgender individuals might experience higher life satisfaction over time post-GAS.

Participants who had GAS reported lower depressive symptoms (p=.07) and higher self-esteem (P=.03).

Significant differences were found between baseline and post-GAS measures for anxiety (p<.001), depression (p=.001), interpersonal sensitivity (p=.005) and hostility (p=.008). • SCL-90 scores after HT and GAS are similar to those of the general population. There was an increase in social contacts and a decrease in substance abuse post-GAS. • Post-GAS, majority of patients indicated that they have a better mood (95.2%), are happier (92.9%) and feel less anxious (81%). • Participants reported to be more self-confident (78.6%) and encounter a better body-related experience (97.6%), indicating a less distorted self-image than before treatment.

There are many more of these studies...

Quality of life improvement after chest wall masculinization in female-to-male transgender patients: A prospective study using the BREAST-Q and Body Uneasiness Test - PubMed

As the prevalence of gender affirming surgery increases and as health policies are being developed in this area, the need for evidence-based studies surrounding specific interventions is essential. This study demonstrates significant improvement in a n...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29422399/

ArabeIIaScott · 05/09/2023 14:11

I'm just leaving this here, as it seems relevant.

The quality of evidence is crucial.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4888230-gender-affirmation-a-crisis-in-published-medical-research?reply=128959233

'"What this issue has revealed is a crisis in the published medical research"

'Activist researchers are essentially laundering political opinions as established facts through the peer review process. The problem is a new form of epistemological (how we know what we know) activism that contorts knowledge resources from the source - academic journals''

'Gender affirmation' - a crisis in published medical research | Mumsnet

[[https://twitter.com/MikeNayna/status/1698639970007716244 https://twitter.com/MikeNayna/status/1698639970007716244]] I know there's a thread on the...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4888230-gender-affirmation-a-crisis-in-published-medical-research?reply=128959233

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 14:13

OldCrone · 05/09/2023 13:46

This is all very recent. The vast increase in numbers of children being referred to gender clinics, in particular teenage girls, and receiving this treatment has been happening for less than 10 years. It takes time for those girls to reach adulthood and really understand what has been done to them. Chloe Cole's case in the US is one of the first.

Indeed. I read somewhere that the start time to detransition is from around 5 years on average (I am not sure where I read it, but happy to be corrected if someone has evidence to the contrary). Certainly, the detransitioner figures from the 2017 study I posted which saw 8.3% female detransition numbers was looking at ten years or so since treatment began if I remember correctly.

The bulge started in 2017/18??? We are probably just beginning to see the numbers of detransitioners from this cohort likely building from now. But then they are considered a different cohort from the past and they may take longer to detransition because they are now socially pressured to stay tranisitioned longer. We shall sadly have to wait to see.

However, it is probably clear to all reading that we are not going to have answers today for how many are acceptable collateral before concerns are fully considered?

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 14:17

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 14:06

Of course you've now resorted to cherry picking individual studies.

Psychosocial well-being improved significantly post-GAS (31.3 preoperatively to 78.9 postoperatively, p<.001). • Physical well-being improved significantly post-GAS (65.3 to 80.3, p<.001). • Improvements also seen in global severity index (2.68 to 1.20, p<.001), body image concerns (3.49 to 1.33, p<.001), social avoidance behavior (2.51 to 0.74, p<.0001), compulsive self-monitoring (1.62 to 1.25, p<.001), depersonalization (2.35 to 0.82, p<.0001).

The MH QoL of trans women without surgical intervention was significantly lower compared to the general population (p<.05). • MH QoL scores were not significantly different between trans women who had GAS (49.3) and general female population (48.9). • Trans women who had GAS had higher MH related QoL then their non-surgical counterparts.

Patients reported better QoL after GAS. • A prospective QoL study in trans men showed significant improvements post GAS, and 91% of trans women reported improvements in QoL after vaginoplasty. • QoL was shown to improve after chest wall masculinizing surgery. • 71% of patients undergoing penile inversion vaginoplasty agree that their GD has resolved as a result of the surgery • An increasing number of GAS procedures are associated with a greater degree of improvement in GD. • Vaginoplasty has been shown to significantly decrease depression and anxiety in trans women • GAS has shown a greater reduction in depression and suicidality versus isolated hormone therapy.

After adjusting for sociodemographic factors and exposure to other types of gender-affirming care, GAS was associated with lower past-month psychological distress (aOR, 0.58; 95% CI, 0.50-0.67; p<.001) and past-year suicidal ideation (aOR, 0.56; 95% CI, 0.50-0.64; p<.001) when compared to trans individuals with no history of GAS. • Those who had undergone all desired GAS had significant reductions in the odds of each adverse mental health outcome and the reductions were more profound than those who had only received some of their desired GAS.

GD decreased post-GAS (p<.001). • Post-GAS, individuals were similar to general Dutch population in terms of objective well-being. • Psychological functioning improved steadily over time, resulting in rates of clinical problems that are indistinguishable from general population samples. • QoL, satisfaction with life, and subjective happiness scores are comparable to same age peers.

Transgender individuals pre-GAS were hospitalized for psychiatric morbidity four times more often than controls. • Post-GAS, that rate dropped to three times as likely (19 cases in the transgender group and 4.2 cases in the control group).

GAS was positively associated with MH (p<.01). • GAS was positively associated with life satisfaction (p<.01). • Authors suggest that transgender individuals might experience higher life satisfaction over time post-GAS.

Participants who had GAS reported lower depressive symptoms (p=.07) and higher self-esteem (P=.03).

Significant differences were found between baseline and post-GAS measures for anxiety (p<.001), depression (p=.001), interpersonal sensitivity (p=.005) and hostility (p=.008). • SCL-90 scores after HT and GAS are similar to those of the general population. There was an increase in social contacts and a decrease in substance abuse post-GAS. • Post-GAS, majority of patients indicated that they have a better mood (95.2%), are happier (92.9%) and feel less anxious (81%). • Participants reported to be more self-confident (78.6%) and encounter a better body-related experience (97.6%), indicating a less distorted self-image than before treatment.

There are many more of these studies...

Who has resorted to cherry picking studies?

I will read this later as I am out.

Was that a snide comment based on my pointing out that it is not useful or credible to post studies that people cannot access? Do You call that cherry picking?

Or is it that we also expect to discuss studies and their merits that perturbs you?

OldCrone · 05/09/2023 14:19

No therapist wants to be the one who took five years to diligently work through all a patient's issues and eventually conclude that yes, they really are transgender and the best course of action is hormones and surgery, only for the patient to turn round and say, "Well fuck you very much. You're only telling me what I told you when I was 12, except that now I'm 17, I've gone through puberty and have no hope of ever passing now. Thanks for ruining my life."

What does it mean for someone to be 'really transgender'? Isn't being 'really transgender' a subjective experience for the individual? What is the difference between someone who thinks they are transgender but isn't 'really transgender' and someone who is 'really transgender'? What are the objective criteria?

And why is the importance of 'passing' given so much prominence amongst people who identify as transgender? This is about how other people see you. It's not a personal experience for the individual, but something which is dependent on other people's perception. A treatment for children which sterilises them and makes them less healthy in many other ways, as well as making them medical patients for life, is being done in the hope that other people will view them in a different way, for much the same reasons that adults sometimes choose to have cosmetic surgery. How can anyone defend this?

Of course, the 'passing' issue which requires a child not to go through puberty in order to 'pass' only applies to males. There is absolutely no reason to halt the puberty of girls for this reason.

Codlingmoths · 05/09/2023 14:27

Paywalled so I can’t see. Is this the paper? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1526820919307360#:~:text=Regret%20after%20mastectomy%20remains%20a,adequately%20informed%20about%20reconstructive%20options.
This just isn’t enough to go on but at surface conclusions look different from your quote. This says least 20% had some form of regret about it, much lower than your figures and also I think perfectly rational. If I’d had for example chemo, I’d regret losing my hair, I’d regret the life I’d missed out on while at home racked by nausea, I’d regret the stress on my family, I’d regret what it has done to my once healthy active body. I’d have lots of forms of regret, but not one would be that I had the chemo to start with, and fought that cancer to get more time to live life with my children and husband. You would absolutely have to dive into the detail of what the study asked to understand this ambiguous wording ‘some forms of regret.’ If the study concluded at least 20% regretted having the reconstruction and would given the choice again have chosen not to have it, then they’d say that far more dramatic conclusion in their intro! I can very well imagine for example regretting the loss of my own breasts and while I’m happy to have these reconstructed ones compared to not having any, I can easily see getting dressed every day and thinking they aren’t my breasts really. The regret here is probably for many women the loss of their breasts, because that is a loss can’t just be fixed with a reconstruction like it didn’t happen.

also, and extremely significantly, the median age of the several hundred women in the study was mid 60s. They are never going to be shocked by discovering they can’t breastfed or perhaps even have a baby when they hadn’t thought these things through when making these decisions at a young age. These are significant impacts.

Sunlight in Australia
RainWithSunnySpells · 05/09/2023 16:02

In the Public Discourse 'correction' link posted by Helle upthread, they refer to a previous study as 'one we consider perhaps the best of its kind'.

'The Dhejne team made extensive use of numerous, specified Swedish registries and examined data from 324 patients in Sweden over thirty years who underwent sex reassignment. They used population controls matched by birth year, birth sex, and reassigned sex. When followed out beyond ten years, the sex-reassigned group had nineteen times the rate of completed suicides and nearly three times the rate of all-cause mortality and inpatient psychiatric care, compared to the general population.'

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden

Context The treatment for transsexualism is sex reassignment, including hormonal treatment and surgery aimed at making the person's body as congruent with the opposite sex as possible. There is a dearth of long term, follow-up studies after sex reassig...

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0016885

RainWithSunnySpells · 05/09/2023 16:16

This study also posted by Helle upthread is interesting due to the wording. The use of 'Penile Reconstruction' when the patients are female stands out to me. It makes me automatically think of men who've been injured and the repair of a damaged phallus, not the construction of a neo-phallus on a female patient with functioning and uninjured genetalia.

Unfortunately, the number of complications is not shocking to anyone who has read anything about phalloplasty. It is such a brutal operation whichever method of donor site is used.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33663938/

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 16:23

Codlingmoths · 05/09/2023 14:27

Paywalled so I can’t see. Is this the paper? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1526820919307360#:~:text=Regret%20after%20mastectomy%20remains%20a,adequately%20informed%20about%20reconstructive%20options.
This just isn’t enough to go on but at surface conclusions look different from your quote. This says least 20% had some form of regret about it, much lower than your figures and also I think perfectly rational. If I’d had for example chemo, I’d regret losing my hair, I’d regret the life I’d missed out on while at home racked by nausea, I’d regret the stress on my family, I’d regret what it has done to my once healthy active body. I’d have lots of forms of regret, but not one would be that I had the chemo to start with, and fought that cancer to get more time to live life with my children and husband. You would absolutely have to dive into the detail of what the study asked to understand this ambiguous wording ‘some forms of regret.’ If the study concluded at least 20% regretted having the reconstruction and would given the choice again have chosen not to have it, then they’d say that far more dramatic conclusion in their intro! I can very well imagine for example regretting the loss of my own breasts and while I’m happy to have these reconstructed ones compared to not having any, I can easily see getting dressed every day and thinking they aren’t my breasts really. The regret here is probably for many women the loss of their breasts, because that is a loss can’t just be fixed with a reconstruction like it didn’t happen.

also, and extremely significantly, the median age of the several hundred women in the study was mid 60s. They are never going to be shocked by discovering they can’t breastfed or perhaps even have a baby when they hadn’t thought these things through when making these decisions at a young age. These are significant impacts.

No that’s not the study I referred to.

I linked to the study I was talking about.

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 16:25

RainWithSunnySpells · 05/09/2023 16:02

In the Public Discourse 'correction' link posted by Helle upthread, they refer to a previous study as 'one we consider perhaps the best of its kind'.

'The Dhejne team made extensive use of numerous, specified Swedish registries and examined data from 324 patients in Sweden over thirty years who underwent sex reassignment. They used population controls matched by birth year, birth sex, and reassigned sex. When followed out beyond ten years, the sex-reassigned group had nineteen times the rate of completed suicides and nearly three times the rate of all-cause mortality and inpatient psychiatric care, compared to the general population.'

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

That tells us nothing about how they compare to trans people who have not had surgery, and particularly trans people who have wanted surgery but not had it.

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 16:42

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 14:06

Of course you've now resorted to cherry picking individual studies.

Psychosocial well-being improved significantly post-GAS (31.3 preoperatively to 78.9 postoperatively, p<.001). • Physical well-being improved significantly post-GAS (65.3 to 80.3, p<.001). • Improvements also seen in global severity index (2.68 to 1.20, p<.001), body image concerns (3.49 to 1.33, p<.001), social avoidance behavior (2.51 to 0.74, p<.0001), compulsive self-monitoring (1.62 to 1.25, p<.001), depersonalization (2.35 to 0.82, p<.0001).

The MH QoL of trans women without surgical intervention was significantly lower compared to the general population (p<.05). • MH QoL scores were not significantly different between trans women who had GAS (49.3) and general female population (48.9). • Trans women who had GAS had higher MH related QoL then their non-surgical counterparts.

Patients reported better QoL after GAS. • A prospective QoL study in trans men showed significant improvements post GAS, and 91% of trans women reported improvements in QoL after vaginoplasty. • QoL was shown to improve after chest wall masculinizing surgery. • 71% of patients undergoing penile inversion vaginoplasty agree that their GD has resolved as a result of the surgery • An increasing number of GAS procedures are associated with a greater degree of improvement in GD. • Vaginoplasty has been shown to significantly decrease depression and anxiety in trans women • GAS has shown a greater reduction in depression and suicidality versus isolated hormone therapy.

After adjusting for sociodemographic factors and exposure to other types of gender-affirming care, GAS was associated with lower past-month psychological distress (aOR, 0.58; 95% CI, 0.50-0.67; p<.001) and past-year suicidal ideation (aOR, 0.56; 95% CI, 0.50-0.64; p<.001) when compared to trans individuals with no history of GAS. • Those who had undergone all desired GAS had significant reductions in the odds of each adverse mental health outcome and the reductions were more profound than those who had only received some of their desired GAS.

GD decreased post-GAS (p<.001). • Post-GAS, individuals were similar to general Dutch population in terms of objective well-being. • Psychological functioning improved steadily over time, resulting in rates of clinical problems that are indistinguishable from general population samples. • QoL, satisfaction with life, and subjective happiness scores are comparable to same age peers.

Transgender individuals pre-GAS were hospitalized for psychiatric morbidity four times more often than controls. • Post-GAS, that rate dropped to three times as likely (19 cases in the transgender group and 4.2 cases in the control group).

GAS was positively associated with MH (p<.01). • GAS was positively associated with life satisfaction (p<.01). • Authors suggest that transgender individuals might experience higher life satisfaction over time post-GAS.

Participants who had GAS reported lower depressive symptoms (p=.07) and higher self-esteem (P=.03).

Significant differences were found between baseline and post-GAS measures for anxiety (p<.001), depression (p=.001), interpersonal sensitivity (p=.005) and hostility (p=.008). • SCL-90 scores after HT and GAS are similar to those of the general population. There was an increase in social contacts and a decrease in substance abuse post-GAS. • Post-GAS, majority of patients indicated that they have a better mood (95.2%), are happier (92.9%) and feel less anxious (81%). • Participants reported to be more self-confident (78.6%) and encounter a better body-related experience (97.6%), indicating a less distorted self-image than before treatment.

There are many more of these studies...

So the study you have posted that has come up with the thumbnail is behind a paywall.

Again, please only post studies that we can read the full text. This is not 'cherry picking', this is just standard expectations for debate.

If you don't understand that the conclusions you are posting as evidence need to read and checked, then frankly, it will seem that you are simply posting stuff that cannot be verified. And that is poor faith.

While you might be convinced by the abstract and the conclusions, others know better and that methodology and seeing how things are worked out is very important. For instance, what is the time frame for any of these studies?
How relevant are they to the current cohort of young transitioners who we are constantly discussing - those being the majority of female people?
How has the information been collected?

If you have included any other links in this post, please post the URL links and do not hide them. Why should any of us click on a hidden link?

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 05/09/2023 16:46

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 05:48

I knew I would be attacked. But you have to know that these surgeries occur so infrequently that on the scale of issues to be inflamed about, this would be low. 18 is the age of legal consent in Australia, so after this time, any medical decisions are made by that individual. And, yes, for life-changing decisions such as this, an individual (and before the age of 18, their parents and/or guardians) have to undergo counselling.

This TV show is known for creating click-bait controversy out of very little.

How many children/teenagers rendered infertile and incapable of normal sexual function is too many, in your view?

PlanetJanette · 05/09/2023 17:19

Helleofabore · 05/09/2023 16:42

So the study you have posted that has come up with the thumbnail is behind a paywall.

Again, please only post studies that we can read the full text. This is not 'cherry picking', this is just standard expectations for debate.

If you don't understand that the conclusions you are posting as evidence need to read and checked, then frankly, it will seem that you are simply posting stuff that cannot be verified. And that is poor faith.

While you might be convinced by the abstract and the conclusions, others know better and that methodology and seeing how things are worked out is very important. For instance, what is the time frame for any of these studies?
How relevant are they to the current cohort of young transitioners who we are constantly discussing - those being the majority of female people?
How has the information been collected?

If you have included any other links in this post, please post the URL links and do not hide them. Why should any of us click on a hidden link?

Firstly your lack of access isn’t my issue. Your presumption that I’ve not been able to read the studies that are behind a paywall is not a correct one.

Secondly, I’ve posted links to 11 studies. And no, they are not all behind paywalls. They are only a fraction of those showing positive outcomes from gender affirmation surgery. You can choose not to read them if you wish. Your call.

But your claim that there was no evidence at all that surgery contributes to positive outcomes is flat out wrong.

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