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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Thread gallery
19
MargotBamborough · 04/09/2023 07:43

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 06:57

I suppose I'm not one to think it applies to all "young people". I recognise it is a. extremely infrequent, b. not something you can order on a whim, and c. is one piece of a complex, highly personal puzzle. I don't fall easily to sensationalised content like this. What about the often quoted mantra, 'my body, my choice'? Does this only apply in some circumstances and not others?

For the record, I don't agree with surgeries like this and wouldn't want my children to have anything like it. However, if it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, perhaps it is best. And perhaps it is better delayed until they better understand the consequences.

If it is only done when it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, why are there detransitioners?

RainWithSunnySpells · 04/09/2023 07:52

I've often wondered why children/youths/adults with gender dysphoria get such sub-standard care.

It is widely recognised throughout the world that properly researched evidence based medicine is the best. The gold standard if you like.

It is clear that the affirmation model is not evidence based. The number of detransitioners is also important and should not be dismissed as 'only a few' as it is evidence that more research is needed. Surely the aim should be to get it right so that you progress to having zero detransitioners?

So why then that EBC is not what is campaigned for by the TRA's? I just don't understand this. Is it a self-hating/self-destructive movement?

ChokkaQuokka · 04/09/2023 08:11

“My body, my choice” presupposes that the choices are presented with full information about the consequences, including harms as well as benefits. It presupposes that the choices available are backed up with sound evidence of those benefits. It presupposes that the person making the decision is capable of weighing up the choice, and isn’t hampered by youth or poor mental health. It presupposes that the person making the choice knows they have a choice, and haven’t been scared into thinking that their only choices are this course of action or suicide.

None of these considerations are true in the case of so-called “gender affirming care”.

Even if you don’t care about detransitioners, surely you’d think trans people deserve better that what they are being served up now.

Helleofabore · 04/09/2023 08:18

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 06:57

I suppose I'm not one to think it applies to all "young people". I recognise it is a. extremely infrequent, b. not something you can order on a whim, and c. is one piece of a complex, highly personal puzzle. I don't fall easily to sensationalised content like this. What about the often quoted mantra, 'my body, my choice'? Does this only apply in some circumstances and not others?

For the record, I don't agree with surgeries like this and wouldn't want my children to have anything like it. However, if it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, perhaps it is best. And perhaps it is better delayed until they better understand the consequences.

Can you tell us how many children and young women are acceptable to you as collateral until the treatment plans are more heavily regulated and based on evidence?

How many ‘it doesn’t happen often’ surgeries are acceptable when it has been shown that they are happening at 16 and are happening even in older female patients without the appropriate levels of care?

And by appropriate levels of care, I also mean that being passed between services without appropriately checking the last service’s diagnosis?

And without considering the capacity for that patient to make that decision?

Honestly, I don’t think some people understand that even adults at some points in their lives are not in a position to make appropriate decisions, some adults may never be in that position at all.

How many misdiagnosed patients are acceptable in a situation where treatment plans are failing due to ideological adherence (ie. If you have a clinician who simply follows what extremist activists such as WPATH and ACON say is the best treatment plan, for whatever motivation as an example) ?

Just 1 patient? Well we have already had 1. 2? We have two publicly talking at the moment in Australia?

Will 10 patients be still dismissed as ‘it only happens occasionally’? 50? 100? 1000?

Please name a number of adolescents and young adults who are acceptable to be dismissed without considering ‘there might be something to this’ and dismissing content as ‘froth’?

How many exposing themselves to abuse when they become public will make someone question ‘if it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, perhaps it is best.’?

OldCrone · 04/09/2023 08:29

However, if it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, perhaps it is best.

Where is the evidence that removing the healthy breasts of a 16 year old girl is likely to be better for her psychological health in the future?

ChokkaQuokka · 04/09/2023 08:46

OldCrone · 04/09/2023 08:29

However, if it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, perhaps it is best.

Where is the evidence that removing the healthy breasts of a 16 year old girl is likely to be better for her psychological health in the future?

Indeed.

Every single jurisdiction that has examined the evidence has concluded that all the studies purporting to show a benefit from these interventions are of low quality (and mostly outright shoddy).

Sweden, Norway, Finland, France, UK, Florida. All found the same.

No jurisdiction that has done a standard evidence review – of the kind every other medical intervention is subjected to – has found positive outcomes from these interventions.

MargotBamborough · 04/09/2023 08:47

Helleofabore · 04/09/2023 08:18

Can you tell us how many children and young women are acceptable to you as collateral until the treatment plans are more heavily regulated and based on evidence?

How many ‘it doesn’t happen often’ surgeries are acceptable when it has been shown that they are happening at 16 and are happening even in older female patients without the appropriate levels of care?

And by appropriate levels of care, I also mean that being passed between services without appropriately checking the last service’s diagnosis?

And without considering the capacity for that patient to make that decision?

Honestly, I don’t think some people understand that even adults at some points in their lives are not in a position to make appropriate decisions, some adults may never be in that position at all.

How many misdiagnosed patients are acceptable in a situation where treatment plans are failing due to ideological adherence (ie. If you have a clinician who simply follows what extremist activists such as WPATH and ACON say is the best treatment plan, for whatever motivation as an example) ?

Just 1 patient? Well we have already had 1. 2? We have two publicly talking at the moment in Australia?

Will 10 patients be still dismissed as ‘it only happens occasionally’? 50? 100? 1000?

Please name a number of adolescents and young adults who are acceptable to be dismissed without considering ‘there might be something to this’ and dismissing content as ‘froth’?

How many exposing themselves to abuse when they become public will make someone question ‘if it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, perhaps it is best.’?

Spoiler: they will never, ever tell you a number.

Helleofabore · 04/09/2023 08:48

It really is important here to understand the nature of testosterone of female bodies too. That can be severely life limiting and life shortening.

So, testosterone prescriptions can happen before 16 in Australia if memory is correct? As long as the parents agree.

I suggest any poster who feels testosterone is harmless should go and read detransitioner accounts or read up on the Eastern European girls and women in sports. Because it is not even just the voice left damaged. The permanent bladder disfunction, the daily pain while urinating, the cliterol damage are rarely discussed in media and social media unless it is a detransitioner.

That is also not considering the uterus dystrophy that may lead to early hysterectomy. And the current thought that these earlier the hysterectomy mean early dementia risk is hugely increased. And by early, diagnosed in 40s.

https://www.hysto.net/reasons-transmen-get-hysterectomy.htm

This also doesn’t include the vaginal tears during sex due to the thinning of the vagina that has been reported.

Only some of which is included in the information. Here is an example, and some of these ‘effects’ are desired.

https://shinesa.org.au/media/2021/03/Gender-Affirming-Therapy_Testosterone-Flyer.pdf

What child or young adult can truly conceptualise a future as a medical patient for the rest of their lives? Particularly if the side effects are not discussed in depth on media and in information.

Why would anyone not question testosterone treatment in the exact same way we question surgical treatment?

https://shinesa.org.au/media/2021/03/Gender-Affirming-Therapy_Testosterone-Flyer.pdf

Helleofabore · 04/09/2023 08:50

MargotBamborough · 04/09/2023 08:47

Spoiler: they will never, ever tell you a number.

No. Not one poster who has used the ‘it is so few, it is infrequent argument has answered this question that I and many others have repeatedly asked.

The dissonance alarm must be very loud .

borntobequiet · 04/09/2023 08:50

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 05:48

I knew I would be attacked. But you have to know that these surgeries occur so infrequently that on the scale of issues to be inflamed about, this would be low. 18 is the age of legal consent in Australia, so after this time, any medical decisions are made by that individual. And, yes, for life-changing decisions such as this, an individual (and before the age of 18, their parents and/or guardians) have to undergo counselling.

This TV show is known for creating click-bait controversy out of very little.

Disagreement isn’t attack.

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 08:52

@MargotBamborough

If it is only done when it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, why are there detransitioners?

Gender dysphoria isn't that common in the general population.
Transitioning is even less common.
I've seen different numbers, but generally, detransitioning occurs in about 1% of trans.

I'd imagine if someone gets to the point in their gender dysphoria where possessing such outward, clear signs of sexual identity is causing them mental problems, then yes, that's why they would have them removed. Given any life is journey, I'm sure there are those that regret their choices. Not everyone makes the best choices always, even with counselling and support.

NotBadConsidering · 04/09/2023 08:55

MargotBamborough · 04/09/2023 08:47

Spoiler: they will never, ever tell you a number.

I’ve stated this often enough that I think I can claim it as NotBadConsidering’s Law that the answer is n+1 where n is the actual number. It’s always never enough to make some people give a damn. Can be applied to

• cases of surgeries in children
• detransitioners
• trans identifying violent male criminals
• examples of loss of women’s spaces
• lesbophobia

and so on…

MargotBamborough · 04/09/2023 08:55

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 08:52

@MargotBamborough

If it is only done when it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, why are there detransitioners?

Gender dysphoria isn't that common in the general population.
Transitioning is even less common.
I've seen different numbers, but generally, detransitioning occurs in about 1% of trans.

I'd imagine if someone gets to the point in their gender dysphoria where possessing such outward, clear signs of sexual identity is causing them mental problems, then yes, that's why they would have them removed. Given any life is journey, I'm sure there are those that regret their choices. Not everyone makes the best choices always, even with counselling and support.

OK. Do you have a source for that 1% figure?

NotBadConsidering · 04/09/2023 08:58

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 08:52

@MargotBamborough

If it is only done when it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, why are there detransitioners?

Gender dysphoria isn't that common in the general population.
Transitioning is even less common.
I've seen different numbers, but generally, detransitioning occurs in about 1% of trans.

I'd imagine if someone gets to the point in their gender dysphoria where possessing such outward, clear signs of sexual identity is causing them mental problems, then yes, that's why they would have them removed. Given any life is journey, I'm sure there are those that regret their choices. Not everyone makes the best choices always, even with counselling and support.

Gender dysphoria isn't that common in the general population.
Transitioning is even less common.
I've seen different numbers, but generally, detransitioning occurs in about 1% of trans.

There are thousands of children medically transitioning around the world, including hundreds in Australia. There are significant numbers of children under the age of 18 who have had both breast removal in Australia, and genital surgery in other countries.

Again, how many does it require before you think there’s a story in it?

MargotBamborough · 04/09/2023 09:04

NotBadConsidering · 04/09/2023 08:58

Gender dysphoria isn't that common in the general population.
Transitioning is even less common.
I've seen different numbers, but generally, detransitioning occurs in about 1% of trans.

There are thousands of children medically transitioning around the world, including hundreds in Australia. There are significant numbers of children under the age of 18 who have had both breast removal in Australia, and genital surgery in other countries.

Again, how many does it require before you think there’s a story in it?

Quite apart from the fact that 1% of thousands is quite a lot, I have no idea where they are getting the 1% figure from and would like to see some data if they have it.

(If they don't have the data, it is highly irresponsible to say this.)

Helleofabore · 04/09/2023 09:04

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 08:52

@MargotBamborough

If it is only done when it is best for that individual's psychological health into the future, why are there detransitioners?

Gender dysphoria isn't that common in the general population.
Transitioning is even less common.
I've seen different numbers, but generally, detransitioning occurs in about 1% of trans.

I'd imagine if someone gets to the point in their gender dysphoria where possessing such outward, clear signs of sexual identity is causing them mental problems, then yes, that's why they would have them removed. Given any life is journey, I'm sure there are those that regret their choices. Not everyone makes the best choices always, even with counselling and support.

Here is a new study on a small sample of trans patients and the standard of care.

www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/10/1/121/htm

A few things stand out.

  1. the number of patients with underlying mental health issues. And how they are being completely let down by affirming only treatment.
  2. -The number of visits before receiving hormones was 2.7 appointments.
  3. -67 patients average age 27.8 years -range was 12- 54
  4. -42 females, 22 males, four NB (3 f / 1 m)
  5. -Female mean age is 18 years, male 23 years.
  6. -Out of the 67, only 9 (13%) had NO mental health diagnosis. 10 (15%) had diagnosed ASD, 4 with ADHD (6%), 3 (4%) with OCD, 1 with Bipolar, 7 (10%) with a Personality Disorder. 13 (19%) had documented childhood abuse, neglect or violence.
  7. the rate of detransition amongst those who had received at least hormones was 9.8%.

This is in line with the European study which showed a long term detransition rate of medicalised transitioners of males 8.8% and females 8.3%.

From this study

Nine patients had stopped hormone therapy; one related to practice policy because they had not attended any GIC follow-up (the patient has restarted since the audit). Thus, eight patients had stopped hormones voluntarily (20% stopping rate; six trans men, two trans women).

This is the other study with the figures 8.8% & 8.3%:

//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5580378/

135 natal males (119 living in the female role, 12 in the male role, 4 did not report their current gender role) and 66 natal females (60 living in the male role, 5 in the female role, 1 did not report a current gender role)

So... 8.88% of males and 8.33% of the females (this does not include those who did not answer the question which if the answer was to detransition would make these figures higher). And in Figure 3. 22.2% of those who socially transitioned, detransitioned.

Could you please give us the links to your 1%. If I remember correctly even a trans group's sponsored research came up with 3+%.

There are currently over 40K+ people registered on detrans reddit. The detransitioners believe this is a fraction of how many detransitioners there are out there unsupported. I suspect you are regurgitating 1% from the media which has some rather questionable sources.

Remember! The Tavistock could not evidence the numbers of detransitioners, even searching peer reviewed studies and papers back in Keira Bell's case. Nothing has been released since, in fact, even more international gender clinics have reported that they have never kept track.

Please stop repeating misinformation. Please check whatever information you post on this thread. Because posting misinformation is incredibly harmful to those reading who might believe your misinformation.

Care of Transgender Patients: A General Practice Quality Improvement Approach

Primary care must ensure high quality lifelong care is offered to trans and gender minority patients who are known to have poor health and adverse healthcare experiences. This quality improvement project aimed to interrogate and audit the data of trans...

https://www.mdpi.com/2227-9032/10/1/121/htm

Stillabitbroken · 04/09/2023 09:04

@OCaptain You are discussing this as if there is solid proof that "gender affirmation "treatments successfully treats gender dysphoria. There isn't. There is growing evidence that gender dysphoria in adolescents is more likely to resolve without transitioning treatments. Given that we know these treatments cause harm, why advocate for them? I don't get it.

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 09:05

I don't know exact numbers. How can I? Do you? I do know this particular program has jumped on a particular bandwagon for views.

Below are the words of Grace Hyland, a young trans woman whose image was used to promote the program without her permission. She is an advocate for young trans' rights.

"The process of transitioning isn’t as simple as walking into a doctor’s clinic, saying you’re transgender, and being sent away with medication, according to her.
"She said that her experience included seeing a gender clinic for a whole year before receiving medication, adding that the decision making process was made with a team of doctors, psychologists, and psychiatrists."

www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/i-dont-regret-it-at-all-channel-7-faces-backlash-for-implying-influencer-regrets-gender-transition/news-story/f73fc8d3eaf6a8a70ea7eed84123cab7

And as I said, I don't particularly agree with this surgery in any case. I simply don't like how this program has generated clicks around a sensitive issue and it's been seized upon.

OldCrone · 04/09/2023 09:06

I've seen different numbers, but generally, detransitioning occurs in about 1% of trans.

Does this figure apply to teenage girls who suddenly acquire a trans identity?

This is a recent phenomenon and most of these girls are still teenagers or in their early 20s. How can anyone know how they will feel at 25 or 30 or 40?

Detransitioner numbers are unknown because this is a current experiment occurring in real time.

Helleofabore · 04/09/2023 09:08

Here is the Westmead Gender Clinic raising alarms at the number of children and teens coming into the clinic that have been fed misinformation and pre-primed with answers to gain their desired diagnosis. 'Desired' because lobby groups and well meaning others have led them, either directly or indirectly, to believe what is the appropriate treatment plans for them and how to get that treatment.

This study is well worth a read.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

Published April 22, 2021
Kasia Kozlowska, Georgia McClure et al

Australian children and adolescents with gender dysphoria: Clinical presentations and challenges experienced by a multidisciplinary team and gender service

Part of the conclusion

Our findings indicate that engagement with families, a trauma-informed model of mental health care, and ongoing discourse pertaining to the effects of unresolved trauma and loss need to be part of all gender dysphoria clinics and the services with which they collaborate. Because of their impact on subjective well-being and the development of the self, specific loss and trauma events present crucial opportunities for both long-term psychotherapy and more immediate, targeted treatments. The move to a more comprehensive, holistic model of care—one that takes into account the individual’s developmental history and the experiences that make up that history—has also been echoed in the work of other clinician-researchers (D’Angelo, 2020a; Entwistle, 2019; Giovanardi et al., 2018; Kozlowska et al., 2021; Williamson, 2019).

Our study found that the children and families who came to the clinic had clear, preformed expectations: most often, children and families wanted a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to be provided or confirmed, together with referral to endocrinology services to pursue medical treatment of gender dysphoria. Parents (vs. children) also largely came with the same expectations, though they were more likely to be interested in incorporating holistic (biopsychosocial) elements, including treatment of mental health comorbidities, family support/therapy, and long-term psychotherapy for the child. It was our impression that these expectations had been shaped by the dominant sociopolitical discourse—the gender affirmative model. It will be interesting to track the expectations of children and families in the years to come as sociopolitical discourses become more varied and diverse and as the voices are heard of both those who have done well and those who not done well via the medical pathway.

Our study also found that despite the high rates of family conflict, relationship breakdowns, parental mental illness, and maltreatment (see Table 3)—and our own clinical perspective that both individual and family work were indicated for the majority of families—few families rated themselves as being in a clinically severe range on self-report (SCORE-15). Coupled with the dominant sociopolitical discourse—the gender affirmative model that prioritizes the medical treatment pathway—it is not surprising that the large majority of children and families were not motivated to engage in or to remain engaged in ongoing therapy. These data bring three important phenomena into focus. First, when children and families were given the space and structure to tell the child’s developmental story—nested in the story of the family—they were able to identify and provide a detailed narrative of the key issues that had contributed to the child’s presentation and distress. Without this space and structure, the issues remain undeclared and unaddressed. Second, some families—but also some clinicians—function within a non-holistic (non-biopsychosocial) framework where the child’s developmental experiences are disconnected from their clinical presentation. This non-holistic framework is likely to promote a healthcare delivery model that dehumanizes the child (by not examining the child’s and family’s lived experience) and that promotes medical solutions (correcting the identity/body mismatch) for a problem that is much more complex. Third, as noted earlier, our experience suggests that, insofar as the gender affirmative model is taken as equivalent to medical intervention, clinicians (including ourselves) who work in gender services are coming under increasing pressure to put aside their own holistic (biopsychosocial) model of care, and to compromise their own ethical standards, by engaging in a tick-the-box treatment process. Such an approach does not adequately address a broad range of psychological, family, and social issues and puts patients at risk of adverse future outcomes and clinicians at risk of future legal action.

MargotBamborough · 04/09/2023 09:09

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 09:05

I don't know exact numbers. How can I? Do you? I do know this particular program has jumped on a particular bandwagon for views.

Below are the words of Grace Hyland, a young trans woman whose image was used to promote the program without her permission. She is an advocate for young trans' rights.

"The process of transitioning isn’t as simple as walking into a doctor’s clinic, saying you’re transgender, and being sent away with medication, according to her.
"She said that her experience included seeing a gender clinic for a whole year before receiving medication, adding that the decision making process was made with a team of doctors, psychologists, and psychiatrists."

www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/i-dont-regret-it-at-all-channel-7-faces-backlash-for-implying-influencer-regrets-gender-transition/news-story/f73fc8d3eaf6a8a70ea7eed84123cab7

And as I said, I don't particularly agree with this surgery in any case. I simply don't like how this program has generated clicks around a sensitive issue and it's been seized upon.

So why are you telling us only 1% of trans people detransition when you have just admitted you don't actually know how many trans people detransition?

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 09:13

@MargotBamborough

OK. Do you have a source for that 1% figure?

Apologies - I couldn't find the source again. However, I do have this source that has a number of interesting stats.

www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 09:15

FFS. Just talk amongst yourselves then.

Helleofabore · 04/09/2023 09:16

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 09:05

I don't know exact numbers. How can I? Do you? I do know this particular program has jumped on a particular bandwagon for views.

Below are the words of Grace Hyland, a young trans woman whose image was used to promote the program without her permission. She is an advocate for young trans' rights.

"The process of transitioning isn’t as simple as walking into a doctor’s clinic, saying you’re transgender, and being sent away with medication, according to her.
"She said that her experience included seeing a gender clinic for a whole year before receiving medication, adding that the decision making process was made with a team of doctors, psychologists, and psychiatrists."

www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/i-dont-regret-it-at-all-channel-7-faces-backlash-for-implying-influencer-regrets-gender-transition/news-story/f73fc8d3eaf6a8a70ea7eed84123cab7

And as I said, I don't particularly agree with this surgery in any case. I simply don't like how this program has generated clicks around a sensitive issue and it's been seized upon.

So, you are repeating numbers and you have no fucking idea whether they are correct or not.

I have now provided two recent studies by different European organisations into their patients. Not to research detransition, but to research outcomes. Detransition was noted neutrally in both instances.

Again, could you please give us the number of patients harmed by misdiagnosis that you believe is acceptable? 1%? 5%? 8% 9.8%

You have designated this program as 'click bait' and sensationalised.

Can you tell us please which Australian TV channel do you believe would be likely to do an expose of this type? And which audience would welcome it in any form?

Would Nine do it? SBS? If you think the ABC would do such a programme without it being very biased towards supporting transition, I think I have Tasmanian tiger to show you.

Address the issues that it covered. Stop using what is effectively ad hom attacks towards the nature of the station and the production style.

MargotBamborough · 04/09/2023 09:16

OCaptain · 04/09/2023 09:13

@MargotBamborough

OK. Do you have a source for that 1% figure?

Apologies - I couldn't find the source again. However, I do have this source that has a number of interesting stats.

www.gendergp.com/detransition-facts/

OK. Do you know what/who Gender GP is?