Sunlight in Australia

[octaurpus]

I am very, very surprised to see this. Trailer for an upcoming news story in Australia on one of our commercial networks. https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=877974177284537&ref=sharing

So, I am watching this now.

Courtney/ Connor is Australian. Used transition to escape female stereotypes and male attention. And discussed online material's influence.

Liam, the investigator, allows her to tell her story. And shows a small sample of the tik toks that are on line.

Chloe Cole was next featured. Again, issues with self image.

Liam points out that where Chloe was brought up is quite like a rural Victorian town. And discusses the how social media influence allows children and teens to access information.

David Limbrick was featured who highlighted some of the parent letters.

Liam discussed the voice issues with females.

Back to David Limbrick. Liam points out that in Victoria it is illegal for a school to not affirm a child. Limbrick confirms that effectively no professional can do anything but affirm a child in Victoria.

I wonder, what it is that some posters find 'click bait' about the content so far? What has been stated as far as factual statements that is false? What has not be handled sensitively so far?

Or are the lack of sensitively handled issues further on?

Can someone who watched the programme who found it problematic please tell us what it is that was problematic?

Liam then crosses to some parents in Newcastle to discuss their family situation. No identities mentioned.

Daughter - anxiety and depression. Some experimentation with sexual orientation and then declared herself trans. 17 year old girl self-identified at school and announced on social media that that daughter was a boy.

Liam asked about social media usage and on the parents confirming that yes, there was significant search history, the programme again switched to self published tiktoks from tiktok influencers .

And the daughter was diagnosed as suicidal under 18 and put to hospital. And when the parents came to talk to the doctors the medical staff told the parents in front of the teenager that they were bigots and that the teenager was now referred to endocrinology for testosterone at 17.

No names of the child was released and no images. Of course, this was just the parents being interviewed and their side of the story, but they didn't know about the changes made at the school for months until the teenager announced it on social media.

Sure, balance would have been to have their daughter's viewpoint put across. However, what about the handling of this story was insensitive?

Unbalanced?

There are no suicide statistics that show that this group has any higher rate of suicide than groups with the same or similar comorbidities. And we know from the Cass Report just how many in the UK have significant comorbidities. Why would this be any different in Australia where high rates of comorbities have been identified by clinicians.

I suspect that people demanding 'balance' would expect false statistics from the Trevor project and other poorly evidenced surveys to be presented. Yet, that would be misinformation.

Mel Jeffries - Mason - what a very upsetting piece.

Sexually assaulted as a teen. Felt that she was safer being male. Just like Courtney. Mel wanted to escape her life.

Talked to a trans activist who assured her that transitioning was the answer.

Again a switch to self published tik toks .

Mel talks about the love and attention that she got declaring her trans identity. At 18 she transitioned. Diagnosed under an hour by the doctor. She discusses how she was pre-primed (See at least two of the links to studies and review that I linked previously that discussed this very clearly). She was pre-primed with the idea also that she would kill herself if she did not do this. At 26 she had a double mastectomy.

She was an adult by that stage. She was absolutely vulnerable.

Courtney was scheduled to get a double mastectomy at 28. Covid prevented the operation. During that time she detransitioned in 2020. She says was so ill on testosterone. Including a constantly over sensitive clitoris (this is very commonly described by detransitioners, including then how very painful this is).

Courtney describes that she realised she really wasn't ever going to be a 'man' so she decided that she needed to cope with reality instead.

Back to Chloe. Double mastectomy at 15. Then she regretted that operation. When you see Chloe's size compared to Liam's, she is tiny. But Chloe also came to the same realisation at Courtney. And so does Mel.

So far , Liam has allowed these women to talk for themselves.

Thank you @Helleofabore
I’m out and about tonight doing family stuff so wasn’t in a position to watch it.

In Australia there are 7 places that are gender clinics. Maple Leaf in Newcastle has currently 95 children on puberty blockers.

None of them added anything to the programme despite requests from Liam to have them on record. Dr Jillian Spencer did contribute.

She stated that the vast majority of child psychiatrists have concerns but are too scared to say anything. When she said something, she was suspended. She believes that children are being too quickly diagnosed and no exploration.

She said that some children see a social worker for 2 sessions (for around 2 hours) and go onto puberty blockers. Because clinicians treat puberty as an emergency situation that must be stopped.

She points out that Puberty blockers are known to prevent gender dysphoria from improving. She says 95% go onto cross sex hormones and become life long patients.

This is her:

https://ausdoctorsfederation.org.au/2023/07/26/australian-doctors-federation-statement-on-the-independence-of-medical-decision-making/

https://www.outinperth.com/psychiatrist-lodges-human-rights-complaint-over-transgender-health-care/

From OutinPerth link

Dr Spencer is critical of the gender affirmation approach, and in her complaint says she had concerns about the growing number of transgender youth, and whether they were getting treatment for other mental health issues they were presenting with alongside gender dysphoria.

“I was concerned about the increasing number of children and adolescents – especially biological females – presenting with gender dysphoria in the context of co­morbid mental health diagnoses and complex psychological issues, including trauma,” Dr Spencer reportedly writes in her complaint.

“I became very concerned about the potential harm our hospital was doing in immediately using preferred pronouns, that ­unquestioningly affirms a child’s perceived identity and sets them on a treatment pathway of medical intervention that purports to transition a young person into an identity that they are likely to outgrow if interventions of this kind are not applied.”

The health practitioner would like to see the state’s anti-discrimination act changed to include a clause that states, “no health worker may be required to use a patient’s preferred pronouns” and that “affirmation of a child’s gender identity cannot be imposed on health professionals”.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12285215/Four-Corners-gender-affirming-therapy-slammed-Dr-Jillian-Spencer-irresponsible.html

So glad that this is going mainstream. I watched the program and it was factual and led by people’s lived experiences. Being rushed into diagnosis and recounting the position feedback that transitioning offers the vulnerable girls and women in their own words.

How are the Twitters activists being kind and accepting by abusing victims for sharing the truth about what they as detransitioners have gone through. They don’t like to hear it, but if T gets to tag onto the LGB, then DT do too. LGBTDTA2S++++

Is the child in red in the OP one of the SacconeJoly kids?
Looks like them (and their house) in the video in the link - spinning round as a boy in the blue dress and wonder-womanning into a girl in jeans??

(I admit, I used to hate-watch them and reported them to their local Children's Social Services more than once.)

Next is Dr Dylan Wilson. A paediatrician. I don't know of him.

He expresses concern at the child led approach to diagnosis. That 'children as young as 6-10 years old' go to clinics and declare they are trans and the doctors say 'that is good enough for us'. Dr Wilson says you cannot take a self-diagnosis for this from a 6 year old and it makes no sense that the trans community tells clinicians that 'gender can be fluid' and we are supposed to accept that their gender is fixed at 10 years old and affirm that fixed trans identity.

(Yes, Dr Wilson, we agree the dissonance is significant....)

He wrote an open letter to other Paediatric doctors. Here it is for people to analyse.

https://drdylanwilson.substack.com/p/an-open-letter-to-australias-doctors

Please, any posters who feel this channel has created a sensationalist hit piece, please do analyse this and tell us what you find is wrong with it.

Address the fucking facts instead of Channel Seven and its production quality.

He calls it a medical scandal.

It returns to Dr Spencer.

Dr Spencer states that we need to take a different approach. She says what should happen is that doctors should be saying "we understand that you are in distress with your body, that you are feeling really uncomfortable in your body. And we want to do everything that we can to support you through it. But we know that the risks and the long term consequences of transition are so serious that we can't just assume that that is the right way forward. Because of this, we are going to continue to use your biological name and pronouns. But we are going to work with you to understand exactly what you are going through and do everything we can to help you.'

She talks about the lack of evidence and that any medical professional that says a parent is going to lose their child is wrong.

thanks very much for all of that and the recap @Helleofabore

I am in the final 10 minutes.

They got a specialist to talk. Professor Ian Hickie from Sydney University.

A straight to the point question from Liam: Should we shut down the gender clinics?

Prof Ian Hickie: absolutely not. In my view most of the serious gender clinics in Australia do a great job and deliver considerable mental health & physical health benefits'

Liam: So you agree with their affirmation model, do you? Essentially the child gets to dictate the terms.

Prof Hickie: The child does not dictate the terms. The child is not driving the car here. And I think the position you are presenting is not representative of the genuine situation. Parents who have kids ...

Liam: Hang on, when you say the 'genuine' situation....

Prof Hickie: The great majority ....

Liam: are you saying that the people who are speaking out, those people who have been affected, the casualities in this are not genuine?

Prof Hickie: What I am saying is that the great majority of people who come forward for care, kids who behave a certain way from a very early age, who come forward at puberty and the youth that come forward in adolescence, genuinely come forward seeking to understand the situation that they find themselves. So what really needs to be represented are many of the positive stories. How many lives have been saved.

Liam: The kids whose lives have been wrecked, where do you put them.

Prof Hickie: In the whole of medicine we are dealing with situations all the time, if you have a surgical procedure, if you have a medical procedure, you take medicine, you seek care there is a chance....

Liam: yes, but that is after comprehensive medical analysis. Not an affirmation model. A child goes in and after one consultation, puberty blockers prescribed.

Prof Hickie: No, I don't

Liam: How do you explain that?

Prof Hickie: I don't accept that is what happens in the great majority of situations in Australia. What you are doing is you are picking out and attempting to dramatise and sensationalise a particular side. Which is really sad, I think. Really sad.

Liam: Shall we just go back to the other question again. How do you explain a child being put on puberty blockers and irreversible damage after just one consultation?

Prof Hickie: Let's go back. Let's go back. I don't ...

Liam: No, could you answer the question.

Prof Hickie: no, I don't accept it. I think you also need to address the question of are you presenting an accurate picture. And I would say that no, you are not. There is always the possibility that medical care, in any situation, is not optimal. But when you talk about standard care in Australia in this area. You will find...

Liam: You are using a lot of bureaucratic phrases there.

Prof Hickie: it is not not bureaucratic.

Liam: With respect, how many have you come down from your academic ivory tower and spoken to the people on the ground.

Prof Hickie: I have spoken to kids, I have spoken to kids every day. (Liam is talking over him). I speak to kids everyday and to parents everyday who have gone through this situation. Including those who have not been able to access care in the past. Including those who have gone along and decide at various points and say 'I am happy to stop where I am at'. When you come back later in life and people may change their minds. That is entirely possible.

To say that someone did the wrong think at the time is also not true.

Liam: Professor, answer me this. You are happy to see a 15 year old girl go and have a double mastectomy, are you?

Prof Hickie: No. Not necessarily. And the case in Australia is about kids at a certain age moving from just blocking to hormonal treatment to then potentially surgical is taken typically in a very considered way and not at early ages.

Liam: So, at 15 years old, a child who is not legally deemed responsible enough to drive a car, is somehow deemed medically fit enough to mutilate her body surgically.

Prof Hickie: Language. No you... firstly you used language of mutilation, in an attempt to vilify the doctors involved, and vilify the people involved, I think it entirely inappropriate.

Liam. I am not vilifying anybody. I am saying it is mutilation because if you change your mind four years later, and you have lost your breasts you'd be pretty unhappy about it as well.

Prof Hickie: At 15 years old, children entered into the process, of starting to be involved in their own decision making around contraception, around their own health. Children get involved at 15 are having to make decisions around all sorts of surgical procedures and other areas affecting their health. You try to make fun of the academic thing, you have already tried, you have already tried to dismiss me ....

Liam: I don't think it is funny at all. I think the casualties involved in this are incredibly sad. I want you to address the real issues .

Prof Hickie: I want you to address the issues of the mental health harms of no action. Of the systematic data of the reduction in suicidality. The potential for mental heath are. ..

Liam: So you would rather take action, affirm their gender, go through puberty blockers, irreversible, cross sex hormones, irreversible, you'd rather do that than actually stop, wait and have a comprehensive medical analysis ...

Prof Hickie: No. Again. That is a mis statement, it is a complete mis characterisation.

Liam: And take a pause.

Prof Hickie: no. That is a mischaracterisation of what I said. Gender affirming care does not mean immediately moving to puberty blockers, immediately moving to hormone treatment, immediately moving to surgery. That is a complete mischaracterisation...

Liam: Why are the vast majority of kids turning up to these gender clinics and put on that train.

Prof Hickie: You have to look at the whole process of what happens. And again mischaracterisation...

Liam: Parents are telling us they are being pushed to one side in this. Parents are telling us they are not being heard. Parents are telling us they are being isolated.

Prof Hickie: And how many parents have you talked to that tell you the exact opposite. Are they in your show? Again, the exact opposite?

Liam: Again, it is not a mathematical competition.

Prof Hickie: No, but it is a realistic one. You are trying to characterise a system on the basis of some particular cases and ignore the great majority. What is that? What is that?

Liam: How do you explain the meteoric rise in numbers of kids in Australia presenting at gender clinics.

Prof Hickie: that is a much more interesting question. Sociologically in our society, it is really interesting that more kids are coming forward for care. That is a good thing.

Liam: How do you explain it?

Prof Hickie: That is a good thing. The idea that we are simple binary people, simple male, simple female and happy with that does not respect what has been known for centuries. That a great number of young people are not so binary, they are not so fixed. As our whole society becomes more inclusive and less rigid, more kids are coming forward. This is not just simply a fad, it is not just simply a fashion.

Liam: Really?

Prof Hickie: Really. It is going closer to what has always been the reality.

Liam: Does the influence of social media have anything to do with it in your opinion?

Prof Hickie: Increased awareness? You bet!

Liam: And you think that is healthy do you?

Prof Hickie: Yes!

Liam: So when doctors come to us and say this system is wrong, it is a medical scandal..

Prof Hickie: One? One doctor? (he repeats that )

Liam: And when child psychologists come to us .... so here you are on numbers again. How many do you want us to find? Do you want me to go back out there and come back to you in 12 months time....

Prof Hickie: I would refer, I much refer to the college of physicians, I'd like to refer to the AMA, I'd like to refer to the College of Psychiatrists, large numbers of doctors here in Australia and internationally who are continually looking at the evidence.

Liam: So when a child psychiatrist come along, just one, Professor in your own language, and they get suspended because they present a different opinion, what do you say to that?

Prof Hickie: That person is in dealings with their employer. If you go to the College of Psychiatrists ?

Liam: That is convenient.

Prof Hickie: If you go to the College of Psychiatrists,

Liam: You just go for the bureaucratic headline.

talking over each other.

Prof Hickie: I want to drill down on the thousands of cases in Australia, where good practices are occurring. That is what is happening.

Liam: Finally, what do you say to the parents who have spoken to us, to the parents who have written to us, that are terrified about the situation and what is happening to their children?

Prof Hickie: I'd be quite happy to have conversations with any of those people, to hear their story.

thank you professor.

Then at the end Liam says 'Your argument about the majority is really heartless.'

Prof Hickie says 'I don't agree. My give (????) my heart to the people in any medical situation who might find themselves harmed by medical care is the same for those who have benefitted. I am not heartless at all. It is heartless to ignore the great majority who have benefited.'

Liam says: No you just accept that there are casualties on the side of the road.

Prof Hickie says: Do you accept from any surgical procedure that something may go wrong?

Liam: I don't accept that children...

Prof Hickie : Have you had surgery?

And it keeps going.

Liams: "I don't accept that children have to be put at risk unnecessarily."

Prof Hickie keeps mentioning surgical risks as a defence.
And it goes on...

Blimey. There is a whole lot of denial in Professor Hickie.

But no numbers for n where n+1 is the equation. Liam really did highlight that Hickie is ideologically driven even though that was a very frustrating interview.

I never intended to transcript this. But as I went along, it got more and more weird and confrontational. Until the Professor does seem to doing as Liam pointed out, completely ignoring the parents of children who are saying that there are issues. That their children are NOT getting that extensive service that the Professor wants to believe is happening.

And that fucked up bit about how 'great' it was that kids are coming forward for treatment while ignoring the evidence of the complete switch in the demographics and the many international clinicians raising alarms, even the authors of the Dutch Protocol.... Hickey is completely out of touch and has swallowed a whole load of propaganda about trans people being around for ever ... errr..... no Professor .... not like the young female people you have just ignored!

Dr Wilson points out that the UK has gone the opposite direction to Australia at the end.

So, apart of Chloe, this was an Australian centric piece. So, we know about Mel and Courtney, and Jay with her court case. So far it has been the very brave young women from diverse backgrounds who have spoken out. I guess someone who wants to believe that the medical boards know what they are doing will still be saying 'just a few', the treatments for under 18s is so infrequent and only ever for the right diagnosis etc even in 5 years time. The detransition time seems to be regularly after 4 or 5 years. Well, the bulge due to covid is just now going through. Some people must feel very very comfortable in discrediting this report that that 1% regret rate is true. Despite numerous sources now pointing to at least 8% and even that was before the escalation in female numbers from about 2016-2018 on.

Prof Hickie: What I am saying is that the great majority of people who come forward for care, kids who behave a certain way from a very early age, who come forward at puberty and the youth that come forward in adolescence, genuinely come forward seeking to understand the situation that they find themselves.

It's a shame the interviewer didn't press him on this. What does he mean by 'behave in a certain way'? And what is the 'situation that they find themselves'?

It's stereotypes, isn't it? Otherwise why would he be talking about behaviour from an early age?

He's advocating medicating children who don't conform to regressive gender stereotypes. All the stuff about preventing suicide (for which there's no evidence) is just a cover for his regressive attitude which is based on stereotyping and possibly homophobia.

I have just seen this from Bernard Lane another investigative reporter.

https://x.com/bernard_lane/status/1698672803598508428?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ

“One doctor? Dr Jillian Spencer, who appeared on the program, has so far found 155 doctors willing to sign her petition for an inquiry into our children's hospital gender clinics. Willing despite the inevitable activist attempts to smear their reputations & cost them their jobs. In 2019, an online petition for a parliamentary inquiry attracted 260 doctors' names in three days, before an activist spam attack forced its closure. This included included 20 professors or associate professors, 14 paediatricians & 20 psychiatrists.”

https://www.genderclinicnews.com/p/shine-a-light?utm_campaign=post

I haven’t gone through to cross reference this to see who might be on both lists, however, if any poster wishes to answer my question about how many voices of clinicians and experts will it take before you start to listen, there are already hundreds in Australia by the sounds willing to speak up.

So, how many will it take to acknowledge there may be something very wrong happening here?

Sorry. I don’t actually understand why you have posted this.

The production team has apologised and removed Hyland’s clip. By the way, how old this this male individual? 20? And already they have had hair transplants and breast augmentations? And have an only fans account yet is touted as a trans rights activist?

If this is also what people believe is a positive trans role model, our teenagers are in deep fucking trouble.

Sure, Seven shouldn’t have used the image, but this action has fuck all to do with the content presented on the show.

And here are the shouters having their shout https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/169mioa/channel_7s_heated_interview_with_professor_ian/

Here is a counter point on trans health by 4 corners 1 month ago.

So far, 10 minutes in and four corners have focused on a positive story about 'brock'. Suicide mentioned. And wrong body. Stereotypes all the fucking way with 'the clothes that I want to wear'. And misinformation about the reversibility of puberty blockers, and downplaying of side effects and tells audience that cross sex hormones will 'feminise' Brock. That getting breasts is 'feminising' Brock.

Four corners discusses the waiting lists and mentions that 60+% of Melbourne clinic is female people. No mention of the rapid increase of female patients in what time frame. All while Brock is applying nail polish in the background.

They mention Westmead staff mention that there are issues concerning how to treat children and adolescents. Featured another positive trans story - Ashley.

Discussed the study "Australian children and adolescents with gender dysphoria : Clinical presentation and challenges experienced by a multi-disciplinary team and gender service"

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26344041211010777

Published April 22, 2021
Kasia Kozlowska, Georgia McClure et al

Another trans story - Noah who did commit suicide in July 2023 after not receiving any attention for gender dysphoria. A really messed up story of a child who was absolutely not given the urgent care, including the mental health support that should have been given considering that this female child was anorexic and displaying significant anxiety.

This has tied the reverse approach of attempting to state that trans mental health issues are caused by being 'trans'. Not actually comorbidities needing to be addressed properly first.

So, the study has not been discussed in any real depth. It then presented a parent's view of victimisations about that study.

Westmead Gender Service took only 3 new patients in the first half of this year compared to 88 in the same time last year. And 145 active patients last year and Westmead mentions holistic approach with patients that it takes now.

The study "Developmental pathway choices of young people presenting to a gender service with gender distress" from February 2023 was then discussed. (This is a new study for me, so I am going to read it)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36832443/

Four corners calls this study has having the greatest impact yet and that it mentions 'contested' ROGD . And has Dr Dianna Kenny Consultant Psychologist for Binary discuss social media and peer influence on trans. The four corners presenter uses language such as 'so called gender ideology'. She discusses 'exploratory' therapy.

Four corners then discusses 'desistance' and calls it 'most controversial'. The research team defines desistance as 'the disappearance of gender related distress.' They reported desistance rates of 22%.

Prof Hickey then comes in and denounces it as an outlier and twists it say that those 22% were not eligible for treatment anyway and that this 22% is clear that the process is working as they were not trans to start with.

The study though does state a 9.1% 'desistance' rate for for those who were eligible for treatment.....But 4 corners didn't discuss it with the researchers....

Dr Jillian Spencer does discuss it though for a brief moment.

Four corners then goes into the 'global debate on gender affirming care' with imagery of trans pride. Discusses the US issues - around 20 states. Shows Trump. Then the Tavistock clinic and how it has been 'accused of rushing patients into taking gender affirming drugs'.

Brings back Dr Dianna Kenny expresses the concerns of the Tavistock.

Prof Hickey comes on and tells us that the Tavi got stuck in one particular point of view and one that ignored the complexity of the cases coming forward. (He sounds reasonable here...)

Four corners state the European countries that are winding back gender affirming.

Dr Stephen Stathis and he discusses the bone density issues with puberty blockers.

They introduce Sapphire (10 year old), another positive story. The mother describes Sapphire's 'gender' as per gender stereotypes. The parents moved from Sydney to Queensland to get affirming care for this child. The child is about to start to take puberty blockers. And this child describes puberty blockers in the usual 'just a pause' description and wrong body.

Discusses a complaint against Dr Jillian Spencer who has expressed doubts about affirming only.

They then showed KJK and called her an anti-trans activist and then tied Dr Spencer to the Canberra rally. After, of course, KJK starting off as saying 'transitioning children is child abuse'. Dr Spencer merely just repeating common sense and speaking out against the harms of affirming only. And it showed Pauline Hanson at the event (of course they did)... because balance... of course.

Then Prof Hickey stating there is no evidence that exploratory therapy works better. (oh.... so the Dutch Protocol as it was positioned was wrong then Prof??? )And watchful waiting are not evidence based.

Finally a detrans person . Courtney is introduced and she describes her life very briefly.

Four corners states the 1% detransition %.

Melbourne gender clinic. Dr Tram Nguyen is introduced and explains that apparently Melbourne clinic doesn't just look at gender. They take many details and look at addressing comorbidities or at least prioritising them. They apparently discuss in-depth side effects and that they are doing long term research led by Paediatrician Dr Ken Pang. Looking all aspects including bone density etc. Dr Nguyen who published a critique the Westmead research. They are stuck on the 22 % desistance rate.

Four corners state that the Westmead researcher have not answered the request for meeting.

Overall, the presenter and production team has a bias here.

And the team is just as 'biased' as the Channel Seven report. They have tried to discredit currently the only research done by an Australian Gender clinic. That 9.1% seems to have been avoided being discussed at all.... I have had a look and it could be said that the 'toddler preschool group' had 3 resisters. These would not have been on treatments. (concerning that 35 persisted... how much of that is because they have adopted this gender so young and it is conditioned into them at this time still - this was done over five years 2013 - 2018 and those children would only have just started to even approach puberty really). However, it is possible that the remaining 3 did start some medical treatment so potentially, there is a detransition rate of 4.5%. Again, this was not discussed in any detail, just dismissed by heavily invested clinicians.

At the end Noah's mother asks 'why would children choose this because it is so hard'? And the Ch 7 report had detransitioners discussing exactly why they 'chose' it.

However, again. This was a biased report. But I doubt that the posters declaring the channel seven report to be click bait will care.

Just picking up on another bit from the interview with Prof Hickie.

Prof Hickie: That is a good thing. The idea that we are simple binary people, simple male, simple female and happy with that does not respect what has been known for centuries. That a great number of young people are not so binary, they are not so fixed. As our whole society becomes more inclusive and less rigid, more kids are coming forward. This is not just simply a fad, it is not just simply a fashion.

This man is a medical doctor, and he appears to be talking about sex not being binary. But that's not what he's talking about is it? He doesn't really believe that there's something in between being male or being female, that there is a third sex or a continuum of different sexes. He's talking about people not fitting into regressive, restrictive gender roles. But he can't quite make the leap that we can acknowledge that we all have a sex but that we don't have to fit into those gender roles.

So he thinks it's good that more children are realising that they don't have to go with the stereotypes, but he still thinks this means that their bodies need modifying to fit their personalities. How can someone so apparently intelligent be so stupid?

Yes it's super dumb to me. If all you have is a hammer, the world looks like a nail.

Meanwhile there's no evidence that radical and irreversible surgery is the answer to mental distress for the majority of cases.

@OldCrone It takes an astonishing lack of awareness to declare that more and more young people identifying as non binary because they don't conform to narrow and regressive stereotypes about men and women is a sign of the world becoming more inclusive and less rigid.

Here is another Australian detransitioner - Lee Hazel

https://x.com/aytchellesse/status/1698473078081139141?s=46&t=HTxp6zC_d4GZ2FFv4a-YeQ.

How many are we up to now? 4? Without even searching or trying. All female! How many will satisfy n+1 acceptable collateral before either people start to pay attention to the alarms they are raising about affirming only treatment being flawed.

Agree, very well said indeed.

So is the gender critical position now that even 26 year olds should be allowed gender affirming surgery?

I’m not sure I’d call myself GCF as such, and I sure don’t speak for anyone else here, but I do think that even a 26yo with multiple MH comorbidities shouldn’t have these medical interventions until after they have been treated for their MH issues. I also think that – regardless of the patient’s age – such medical interventions should only be offered outside research settings if they have been shown in high quality research to provide a benefit to the patient that outweighs the risks.

Do you support a 26 year old who has a back ground of trauma, including maybe sexual assault, with potentially other comorbidities such as autism or ADHD, anorexia, depression etc, being treated with hormones and having healthy body parts removed or extreme body modification before those comorbidities are extensively explored, and where needed, treated first?

Would you remove limbs from a 26 year old who couldn’t reconcile that their body part was indeed theirs? yes? No?

Would you affirm a 26 year old person with anorexia who considered themselves ‘fat’ when they had little body fat or muscle left on their body? Yes? No?

If you answered no for the latest two, why would you offer hormones that will irreversibly damage a female body and potentially shorten that person’s life, or remove healthy tissue, without extensive exploratory surgery?