For those who believe in Gender Identity over sex: why do you still need to believe in Men and Women at all?

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

One thing I do not get about Genderism is that they reject the belief that it's the physical body that makes a human a man or a woman, yet still believe some humans are men and some humans are women.

But if we hadn't had the example of two physical sexes, why would we have come up with the idea of Man-people and Woman-people in the first place?

I find it very weird that they can't or won't tell us what definition they use for Man, Woman etc ("it's a gotcha" , "blah blah blah" etc) yet demand such very specific provisions for Men and Women. How can they be so certain "trans women must use women's spaces/compete in women's sports" when without a definition of woman it's impossible to even explain why women need women only spaces or women only sports?

D’you know wims I’m starting to think @ancuruadh might not be the brilliant scientific mind I thought they might be based on their very confident posts about sex, biology and what I can only describe as derision for posters who questioned that. It’s more than high school biology you know!!

Don't they say that you can't recognise the privilege you have which is why @ancuruadh doesn't recognise their male privilege?

Funny isn't it how women are used to society ignoring them and not taking them seriously but men who want to be called women such as ancuruadh feel that this shouldn't apply to them. Surely for full validation of your womanly feels, you should expect people to think you are too stupid to know what you are talking about and be content when treated like a subhuman?

I found ancuruadh's hypothesis about two doses of a hormone in utero interesting. I would love to hear a comment about that from someone much more knowledgeable about human biology than I am. At the moment, I'm unconvinced that it deserves the status of a theory. And it doesn't in any way explain why some people develop gender dysphoria or incongruence in later life, or claim gender fluidity, or detransition.

mmmmmmm programming, mmmmmmm garbage in garbage out, mmmmmmm last night produced a lot to process, maybe next outing will go better.

Some if was very funny though, I liked the static and completely functionless penis concept.

Look, either "gender identity" is linked to physical sex, or it isn't and it's a free-floating feeling. They can't have it both ways.

Is there something -anything - physically female about a 'woman', or not? If everyone who is defined as a woman (NB - that would require a definition, which has never been forthcoming, ever) has a common factor, then we could confidently say who is and who isn't a woman.

If there is no such thing as 'a woman' that can be defined, then it's a meaningless word and having a gender identity (man, woman, non-binary, whatever) is meaningless, tells us nothing.

At some point, you have to name even one. single. criterion. for being a woman or a man. Or accept that each word just means 'an adult human' and go about life using that definition with no distinction between man, woman, non-binary, etc.

I don't really get why the conversation gets so bogged down with 'intersex' 'hormones' 'experience' 'toilets' 'cis' 'aligning' 'sexuality'. Either, when you use the word 'woman', you know what you mean and can explain that, or you don't. Start from there.

Basically what the OP is asking, in a roundabout way.

I would be very interested in hearing how that relates to identical twins where one identifies as trans and the other doesn't.

I have to congratulate our recent visitor. It’s pretty difficult for males to trigger the stomach-churning memory of my abusive ex just by typing words on the internet, but he succeeded !

To respond to the points, the biological concept of trans is old fashioned and in some quarters considered transphobic. It has so many holes in it. it doesn’t make sense that being trans is a body map issue. The body map part of the brain is massively flexible. If you get a fake leg the brain incorporates it into the map quickly. If you attach peripherals to the body the brain, again, can incorporate it. There isn’t any scientific evidence that trans people have a faulty body map. This is just a hypothesis (and I would say it doesn’t explain the current phenomenon of transness very well).

it doesn’t explain the social urge to change gender roles. If a man really thought his penis was an alien body part , the discomfort would be alleviated the second he got his penis removed. If the body map story was correct you would expect trans to be more like the nullo movement (men who get all of their genitalia removed). They don’t feel a need to socially transition into a feminine appearance, so something more has to be going on to explain why trans people aren’t just content with getting the body parts removed but also need to perform the social role of women.

but in any event the modern phenomenon of trans is super far removed from this theory. Andrea long chu ( a respected trans academic) declared they transitioned because it was a fetish , it turned them on and they wanted to. Abigail thorne and contrapoints have said that gender dysphoria is a concept invented by non trans people to make trans more palatable or tame. According to them they don’t have dysphoria and it’s not necessary to be trans. Being trans is a choice. As Abigail says you can literally choose to wake up and be a girl and that is deeply threatening to cis society.

so it seems the biological explanation for trans is neither necessary nor sufficient and it’s a bit… well… old hat and fuddy duddy. After all, if being trans is a brain condition this opens up the idea that it could be diagnosed or cured which doesn’t really fit into the radical queer theory that being trans is a choice. Certainly it seems at the moment the vast majority of trans people are perfectly happy with their penises and have no desire whatsoever to surgically alter it.

No-one even can say whether 'trans' means 'wants to be the opposite sex' any more. It's become a meaningless term.

It includes people who don't believe they have a gender identity, btw, according to some authorities. Which, I would posit, is most people on here.

I have seen Dr Emma Hilton go through this on Twitter. If you are on Twitter, maybe do a search there.

I think I would be deleted if I posted the ‘let that penetrate’ clip or the ‘it’s ma’am!’ Clip.

I'm sometimes agender or non binary, either of which sometimes makes me trans. It's all very dependent on what the last thing I read was.

I am honestly not being snide, it is simply very difficult to navigate, given conflicting authoritative takes, all over the Internet.

The basic layer of reality is I have a body (which is fairly in line with my age and sex) and whether or not I like it, it's like that. And that's the way it is.

I do tend to identify as my younger self, which has pros and cons. Getting injured trying to do acrobatic martial arts moves, as if I'm still 25, for example.

But there are some people who due to a mixture of biological, psychological and cultural factors, develop a gender identity that conflicts with their physical sex.

In what sense?

Once you allow/ admit that cultural expectations exist around gender you can easily see that people can identify with the expectations that are associated with the opposite sex

For me - making it clear that those expectations are rubbish is better than physically harming yourself to try and make it more socially acceptable to express your identity

This is transphobic however, as if there was a medical ascertainable test for being trans caused by hormone washes or anything else, what if someone who identified as trans did not have that diagnosably medical justification?

As with the male people with trans identities who kidnap and rape - you can't tell them that they can't trans any more as some of the SNP seem to be implying.

Identify how you want. Leave women's rights and spaces alone, accept that inclusion and equality applies to everyone and not absolutely everything is for and about you, and don't screw with safeguarding for kids. End of issue.

Demonstrate an appropriately respectful attitude

😂

You first, mate.

Respect ma authoritah!

I often find it's quite interesting to Google new posters' distinctive usernames.

I once worked with a bloke who in his late twenties read a book about astrology and became utterly convinced that it was all true, and defined everything about him. He was a Virgo, so he was a perfectionist (he really wasn't). My sign didn't get on with Virgos, so we couldn't be friendly (we had been, mildly, until then). All sorts of things, what he liked to eat, what he liked to do - all got changed to fit in with what his book told him was appropriate for Virgos. He was a really very silly person, but he let his superficial reading completely redefine his social relationships.

I can see how a person like him, rather silly, very self-focussed, intellectually incurious, could be convinced of almost anything, including the existence of 'genders'.

😂

Well isn’t it just @Ereshkigalangcleg

I'd even go further than that and suggest that there are entire groups of women who actually pose a real danger and or threat to other women in ways which transwomen will simply never be able to.

What do you mean? "Transwomen" are male. How do groups of female people pose more "real danger" to other women than this specific group of male people? If this is about racism, you realise there are many many white, racist "transwomen", no?

Indeed

It's amazing how evident posters' sex often is from just a few tens of words.

Also, did anyone ever actually answer the original question?

'oh look, a racist squirrel' is a standard distraction technique, usually brought in fairly late in the discussion after the silliest opening gambits have failed (we all have the same genes, nah, gender is biological, nah, body shape brains nah,). The interesting variant here was introducing John Money very early (though completely reversing what he did and claimed) - JM must have been an argument loser in some earlier discussion.

I'll be interested to see whether eunuchs' very well-attested urinary problems get acknowledged the next time one of these long-paragraphs-produced-quickly genderism advocates turns up on MN.

It's entirely possible for a trans woman to be extremely distressed about not having breasts, but not really bothered about having a penis.

We know, ancuruadh, we know. And we also know why that is.