For those who believe in Gender Identity over sex: why do you still need to believe in Men and Women at all?

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

One thing I do not get about Genderism is that they reject the belief that it's the physical body that makes a human a man or a woman, yet still believe some humans are men and some humans are women.

But if we hadn't had the example of two physical sexes, why would we have come up with the idea of Man-people and Woman-people in the first place?

I find it very weird that they can't or won't tell us what definition they use for Man, Woman etc ("it's a gotcha" , "blah blah blah" etc) yet demand such very specific provisions for Men and Women. How can they be so certain "trans women must use women's spaces/compete in women's sports" when without a definition of woman it's impossible to even explain why women need women only spaces or women only sports?

I don't remember who said (wrote) it, but something that's stuck with me from this forum is that if you want to know what a man really thinks about women, say no to him.

Aside from the determination to tell us that humans can change sex, that gender identities exist, and a lot of wallop about hormones, our latest mansplaining poster has become nigh on unhinged with rage that women will not agree with him because of his status in the world.

That women are knowledgeable, coherent, capable, and perhaps most importantly won't fold when instructed to do so by a man simply doesn't fit in with his world view.

Get over it, sunny Jim. Women - that is, adult human females - aren't interested in genderist nonsense, and we have no intention of giving up our rights because men claim their feelz are the most important thing anywhere. Let men invade single sex spaces and take away the word women? #No, thank you.

I really do think there are legions of very odd, awkward, and socially isolated men who spend most of their time gaming cos play, anime, and imagining they can role play anything they like. The boundaries between fantasy and reality have long eroded. Conversations and discussions don't flow naturally; they are rehearsed and scripted. Lots of role playing with predicatble stock characters.

In fairness to both of these posts, there’s truth in both
no, you can’t change your sex chromosomes
Yes, taking hormones can affect the epigenetics of hormone expression in the body though, so there are real and long lasting changes to a person’s morphology and chemistry

i dont think there is any truth in in any of ancuruadh posts, they are saying that some cosmetic modifications and hormones mean that you have absolutely changed sex

most of the other posters are saying that hormones can (obviously) change the bodies chemistry but that it’s impossible to change sex

i think you are being too fair 😊

Conversations and discussions don't flow naturally; they are rehearsed and scripted. Lots of role playing with predicatble stock characters.

Yes, this is it - there is no desire or ability to actually communicate. Just to say an irrelevant set piece to vent how awful they think women are.

Some of @ancuruadh‘s posts are so obviously confused (I wanted to choose words carefully!), I can’t understand what they hope to achieve by posting. I keep thinking it may be a game to them, but then see the anger. Or satire, but then notice the persistence.

If you really do want to help promote some of the more controversial views of TRAs, ancuruadh - if you’re really hoping to convert people to your way of thinking - then please reread some of what you’re saying with more objective eyes.

Accusing posters here of making, I think it was something like, “grotesque accusations”, and then, in the same breath, labelling the hundreds of women, mothers, teachers, scientists, doctors etc. who debate here “child abusers”, “stalkers” and “harassers” is simply just not appropriate, or normal, behaviour.

Assuming you want readers to listen to and learn from you to respect and reflect on your cause, and not the opposite (a little part of me honestly still wonders if you’re actually consciously working to undermine it), then you really need to take a different approach, or step back entirely.

In the words of a well known TW speaker and writer, they are 'broadening the bandwidth' of how a male body may present.

It is an adapted male body. It has not become something other than male. And what is wrong with that? Why not own and be proud of what is rather than try frantically to convince all that is can be something that it really cannot.

The only way to be female is to be female at conception. Sorry but this is the reality. The fact that some people find this reality causes them emotional distress is sad, and I wish them all the best in learning to cope with this reality and they body they have, but the world cannot be rearranged to accommodate a kindly fiction that makes them feel better.

Because as has been destruction tested, there is constantly a new boundary to that fiction that then has to be smashed and achieved (we've got women, now let's smash and own 'female'), and there is zero capacity for compromise, respect for biological women, ability to care about or engage with anyone else's inclusion, needs, reality - you cannot be reasonable with a party incapable of reciprocation or reasonability. Indulging it this far was done out of good will and good intentions but it has been proven a massive, massive mistake.

Men can choose to become transwomen and that is great. And transwomen are male, and part of the male sex class. Appropriating and using women to meet the needs of male people is male supremacism, it sees the feelings and humanity of someone with a penis as greater than someone without, and views women as male-owned resources. No one with any grip on social justice, equality or morality should be standing behind that.

Some of @ancuruadh‘s posts are so obviously confused (I wanted to choose words carefully!), I can’t understand what they hope to achieve by posting. I keep thinking it may be a game to them, but then see the anger. Or satire, but then notice the persistence.

This describes most of TRA Twitter.

Yes, exactly.

It never ceases to amaze me just how little all these men, who want believe they are somehow women, know about actual women and our bodies.

A trans person setting a boundary = behaving reasonably and should be supported.

A woman setting a boundary that a male trans person dislikes and finds inconvenient = abuse.

You are going to have to address the massive inequality and inconsistency in your standards. Which are being made on a binary, sexed basis. Either these values are equally for all, or the whole deal is off. I'm not going to enable one special class of people at the expense of myself and all women, and accept status as some kind of servant class, and it really doesn't matter how many names you call me. No. Won't be happening.

Well this one didn’t know that a male penis can move without being manually handled. That it just dangles….

I suspect they have significant issues to deal with. That they know little about either male or female bodies.

As ancuruadh says they've completely changed sex, in every cell in their body, I wonder if they continue to take hormones? Because if their body is now female, surely it produces its own?

I don't see the desire to claim the identity of female as stemming from distress. It looks far more to me like appropriation, colonisation, subjugation and aggressive hostility.

I suppose it can be both. A mixture of angst and rage. But the rage is there very clearly.

As pps have noted, the dynamic is very reminiscent of that of an abuser attempting to control a victim.

Gaslighting, lovebombing, attacking. Rinse and repeat.

We can note that abusers may have their own reasons for doing what they do. God knows I'm sure plenty of us have listened to their victim narratives and sob stories for long enough.

End of the day, though, the reasons why an abusers abuses matters far less than the effect he has on his victims. I am over caring about why some men feel compelled to abuse. My sympathy days are long gone.

Also can we pin down the alleged 'abusive behaviour' that you're accusing me of? (In I think, 4 posts?)

No, I will not unconditionally agree to pretend that a male person is something other than male, because of the severe detrimental impact to women and safeguarding for children.
No, I will not unconditionally agree to use someone's preferred language regardless of my perceptions, because of the severe detrimental impact to women.
No, I will not pretend that reality is something that it is not, to enable a small group of male people to never have to deal with other people's boundaries at the expense of everyone else.

Please explain how this is abusive?

I think excluding women from women's spaces and refusing to accept that women have inclusion and access needs TOO is pretty abusive.
I think requiring women and girls to accept undressing or receiving intimate care from men who name TQ+ identities where it is accepted that they may say no to all other men is pretty abusive.
I think requiring women and girls to accept a pretense that the male they are competing against in a sporting even is not male, and see their sponsorships, scholarships and world records taken into male hands in ways they can never hope to compete with is pretty abusive.
I think women being harassed, assaulted and raped by male people with TQ+ identities in prison is pretty abusive.

Can you see the difference here? You are finding the word 'no' even in theory an appalling an unacceptable abuse. But you're fine apparently with actual, real harm to women in the cause of enabling a small group of men with TQ+ identities.

This is sex based different standards. And a total inability to see women (without TQ+ identities who have opted out of the women group) as human or anything other than service units.

Incidentally I'm more than happy to go through the graphic I shared on emotional abuse and evidence it line by line in impact on women. Real, actual harm.

Not just wailing about someone saying 'no, I and other people have needs too'.

C'mon, Frood. You said 'no', clearly and repeatedly.

Obvs that's abusive.

DARVO, innit.

I’m actually a man, but it’s still possible for me to be bullied into lying. At first, I didn’t realise it was bullying behaviour and compelled speech. I find I cannot consistently use female pronouns to refer to my son; the effort is too great and the dissonance is very distressing. So I am learning to set boundaries. As I am sure you will understand, it is not easy for me to stand up against the weight of trans rights activists, who use emotional blackmail to try to enforce their worldview. I do not want to lose my relationship with my son; my love for him is not negotiable, but he is not a woman and I have come to the conclusion that I am not prepared to have our relationship based on dishonesty. He is not my daughter!

I'm afraid if the idea is supposedly that boundaries are for TQ+ people to set and for everyone else to unconditionally obey respectfully at their own expense?

And saying 'no' to this is intolerable abuse?

Well you're going to have to call me whatever names you feel compelled to, and I will be ok with that, because it is not rational or reasonable. And since it relies on my good will to gain my compliance? No. I'm not enabling that for me or for other women, or for children.

Transparent2 I am so sorry for what you and your child are going through. I will add when I say that I'm not enabling this for children, I include in that children with TQ+ identities who should be protected and cared for to the highest standard, which includes not being galloped unthinkingly and unquestioningly towards life changing and potentially very damaging, destructive actions that they may come to bitterly regret. Or enabled to believe that reality can be something other than it is. You only have to read the accounts (rapidly increasing in number) of many detransitioners to see why.

Thank you. And I agreed with your previous post that I replied to, btw.

I don't know you or your child, but this sounds to me like a healthy parent-child relationship.

Parents parent. Always. This doesn't mean 'affirming' or going along with every assertion a child makes.

Sometimes children protest a lot about decisions their parents make - especially when parents say 'no'.

It's actually my belief that often children are sorely in need of the 'no'. A parent who demonstrates that they are totally committed to the child's welfare, wellbeing and safety, and will set and maintain boundaries, even when the child rails against those limits is sometimes what a child who 'acts up' is desperately looking for.

It is terrifying for a child to feel more powerful than their caregivers.

Then we often get the 'somebody stop me' acts of children who are desperate for someone to set boundaries, so that they know they are safe and will be cared for.

Thank you. That's a helpful answer. For me though, the parts which remain male mean that a person can never change sex. The poster who has been insulting and belittling posters here also shows just how not female a TW can be. I think it was clear to most people that this was a TW, not an actual W even before he said so. There are male patterns of expression, entitlement and expectation and I'd love some research on that because I think that's part of the problem. People raised with male privilege have the privilege to not have to see the male pattern demeaning of women. So they carry on blindly doing the same even when they've taken hormones, surgically removed their genitalia and put on a dress. How much is to do with their testosterone levels being nothing like a real woman's and how much is to do with socialisation I don't know.

Absolutely this. Sometimes the most loving thing a parent can do is say no and weather the resulting storm with their eye on the long term and wider picture of keeping their child safe. It's very, very hard.

Earlier on it was as if someone was trying to train a puppy: lots of commands, instructions and warnings....which also translates quite neatly into a BDSM scenario, with obedient femmes and harsh masters.