For those who believe in Gender Identity over sex: why do you still need to believe in Men and Women at all?

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

One thing I do not get about Genderism is that they reject the belief that it's the physical body that makes a human a man or a woman, yet still believe some humans are men and some humans are women.

But if we hadn't had the example of two physical sexes, why would we have come up with the idea of Man-people and Woman-people in the first place?

I find it very weird that they can't or won't tell us what definition they use for Man, Woman etc ("it's a gotcha" , "blah blah blah" etc) yet demand such very specific provisions for Men and Women. How can they be so certain "trans women must use women's spaces/compete in women's sports" when without a definition of woman it's impossible to even explain why women need women only spaces or women only sports?

Yup.

Drawn.

Snorted.

Moving on.

I think I've cringed myself inside out.

I think the word 'delusional' was used earlier on in the thread. Quite.

So looking at Eddie Izzard is like looking at Child Abuse?

Men pretending to be women are indeed abusing children and their rights to say what they see. 100%

It's the TERFiest thing I've seen all week. Well done.

That has been explained as some people are happy to keep some of their male body parts because those parts don’t cause dysphoria. Or are too risky to remove.

We know that many males don’t feel dysphoric with their penises. I mean, girl dicks. Many of us have been told on social media or in real life have been subject to threats about that girl dick or were they meant to be invitations…

We have also seen the self published porn created by those male people. And who could forget the famed piano playing peen.

But apparently people simply didn’t realise that sex can be changed with hormones and surgery.

Fact check: a male body modified by hormones and surgery is still a male body modified by hormones and surgery. It is never a woman’s or a girl’s body. Always a modified male body.

Last night was like a special reminder. It was Friday night and around midnight and oh so much misogyny. Like old times.

It’s not that I believe in ‘gender identity over sex’, sex is important in some situations and of course there is a difference between men and women.

But there are some people who due to a mixture of biological, psychological and cultural factors, develop a gender identity that conflicts with their physical sex. Some of these people change aspects of their physical sex and need to present/ appear as, and live as their acquired sex for their psychological and physical wellbeing. For some there is absolutely no alternative. As a civilised society and as there is some evidence base to all this they should be supported legally, socially and medically.

There are some limits and they are covered in the equality act guidance. The threshold for exceptions are set high re proportional/ legitimate etc.

This applies to a very small proportion of people and is found all over the world, across cultures, times, even primitive cultures.

Well you asked! That’s what I believe.

ancuruadh said "You can change sex, this is a well known fact".

Hurrah! A man has arrived to share a fact, despite there being no evidence or proof to support that "fact" given that human sexual reproduction is and has been binary for thousands of years and that no human has ever spontaneously or through the hormones touted by ancuruadh changed sex.

The man has also said "Every cell has a complete human genome including all the bits for the opposite gender." On which gene in my XX genome will we find the sequencing of the "bits for the opposite gender" given that gender is a collection of stereotypes rather than something demonstrable and real.

Tricky innit that reality blocks the way of "facts".

Not read the whole fucking thread yet but boy, this is an absolute corker 😂😂😂

This was one of the best visits, at least recently.
I did enjoy being lectured about biology, because my degree was 26 years ago, and science moved on without me, as it tends to do. Having studied at the School of Medicine in the University of Edinburgh, where modern medicine was basically invented (clang), it behooves me to always remain curious and ready to incorporate new findings.
Science and medicine, and perhaps more relevant, psychiatry, are moving on as our knowledge of the human condition grows in breadth and depth.
I did learn a thing or two last night, but nothing about biology. Oh well.

Good lord the sunlight is blinding isn’t it?

im wondering if this ability to change sex includes the miraculous changing of internal skeletal structure too from the one on the left to the one on the right

We are born male or female.

Some people grow up to not feel comfortable in their gender- is it hormonal, environmental, genetic- I don't know. Those people choose to change gender- this can mean wearing typically feminine or masculine clothing of the opposite sex. It can also mean full reconstructive surgery and everything in between.

I don't have issues with this it's no more my business than who people choose to have sex with. But specifically men identifying as women brings issues for women's safety, for women's place in sport, for women's identity in society. So whilst I'm happy to support trans people in society. It shouldn't come at the detriment and risk to women.

No response to my post and (I think) polite request for evidence. Not even an acknowledgment to go and research it myself.

Well colour me surprised.

And the rest of the posts are DARVO and projection in real time.

For any readers who aren’t familiar DARVO stands for Deny Attack Reverse Victim (and) Offender.

It’s commonly used by abusive people to gaslight their victims. In the posts on this thread from @ancuruadh the accusations of other posters being misogynists, privileged, sexualised treatment of women and so on demonstrate this.

Sex is a fixed fact. Some people choose to take medication and have surgery to cosmetically alter their body. The body becomes an adapted version of that sex. They don't change sex.

No one has the slightest problem with wanting all people to have equality of access and rights legally. But when the whole 'men can change sex' line is political leverage to try and destroy women's rights, their equality of access, their single sex spaces, their right to be homosexual in peace? It's going to have to be plainly stated and strong boundaries put up, regardless of hurt feelings.

No one changes sex. No male becomes a woman. Women's rights and resources are not something male people can appropriate and destroy.

In order for a cell to respond to a hormone, that cells has to express the receptor for that hormone. This is in part developmentally regulated - to simplify, dictated by the timing and order bodies are exposed to sexual hormones and other stimuli. Ovaries are a tissue that respond to estrogen (and other hormones of course) by producing other hormones - the lack of ovaries will have a big impact on how a body responds to estrogen. Also, some changes due to puberty cannot be reverted.

But what of the argument that these excemptions should be removed from the EA? Or the argument that the aim needs to be justified for every person demanding the excemptions don't apply to them (case to case meaning every situation of every occurence)? Or the argument changing your legal sex means that your biological sex is no longer relevant and those excemptions can never be applied?

What about countries who do not have the difference between sex and gender reassignment and where governments just change the meaning of sex to mean gender (Germany and the Netherlands have these proposals on the table)?

Statements like these sound nice, but they are so naive.

Can you name a situation in which we distinguish between men and women and sex is not important but gender identity is?

I understand that some people feel this way but I don't understand what society can realistically do about it without prioritising this tiny minority over the general population, having a particularly nefarious effect on women and girls.

Well I'm not a biologist but I'm pretty certain that you can't actually change sex. You can cut bits off and add bits on and mess about with hormones but you're essentially the same sex as you were born.

While I do have sympathy with those with dysphoria it is cruel to suggest otherwise.

I love a live demonstration of the bollocks (no pun intended) genderists spout.

This has to be the biggest rudest Trantrum I've ever seen on here. And there's been a few.

You do realise you're making yourself sound like a complete dick, right?

I wonder if there are any men in countries such as Afghanistan who want to or indeed do live “as a woman “what would that entail, look like? If they cannot continue living in their own bodies in their gender assigned by a doctor at birth and just have to become a woman, what do they do? Don a burka and give up all their rights to education, work etc? Or is it just western countries…???

Sometimes the word mantrum really is apt. Just like being a dick and highlighting stuff when it is all just bollocks.

It’s really interesting how this is playing out on a couple of different threads, how different posters are responding and being responded to.

It hasn’t taken long for demands and controlling language to come out.

Im very fortunate that I haven’t been in a coercive or otherwise abusive relationship, but I imagine there’s plenty of women here who recognise this dynamic well.

Yup.

Not to mention the bullying into silence/recanting that works so well on so many women.

Look at this for abuser talk

Since you have behaved respectfully until now I will ONE chance to display the appropriate level of contrition and go back to being respectful and appropriate.

One final chance, PP aren't you lucky!