For those who believe in Gender Identity over sex: why do you still need to believe in Men and Women at all?

[FlirtsWithRhinos]

One thing I do not get about Genderism is that they reject the belief that it's the physical body that makes a human a man or a woman, yet still believe some humans are men and some humans are women.

But if we hadn't had the example of two physical sexes, why would we have come up with the idea of Man-people and Woman-people in the first place?

I find it very weird that they can't or won't tell us what definition they use for Man, Woman etc ("it's a gotcha" , "blah blah blah" etc) yet demand such very specific provisions for Men and Women. How can they be so certain "trans women must use women's spaces/compete in women's sports" when without a definition of woman it's impossible to even explain why women need women only spaces or women only sports?

I’ve set a boundary. The boundary is that my family members don’t get to bully me by compelling my speech. Is that OK with you?

I think last night you gave all those reading this thread and others a live lesson in DARVO with your behaviour being shown to be the abuser.

I doubt anything you post tonight will redeem your credibility. But feel free to show the world more. It piques so many people’s interest to heights they may have never scaled before.

Them’s awake! Hooray!

#OperationLetThemSpeak

Translation: You've decided that you are entitled to harass these family members. I can only hope they are adults and are able to get away from you. The child abuse you people do is truly unconscionable.

Having a male body in a female space does matter.

In fairness to both of these posts, there’s truth in both
no, you can’t change your sex chromosomes
Yes, taking hormones can affect the epigenetics of hormone expression in the body though, so there are real and long lasting changes to a person’s morphology and chemistry

this is the problem with complex issues being discussed in public forums where lots of people don’t have full knowledge of every single aspect (I don’t have a complete knowledge, and I’m a biology teacher with a degree in genetics! It’s so complicated)

Placemarking for the ... well all of it really 😁

Wow, this thread has done more to convince me than anything else I have read that male socialisation cannot be fundamentally reversed.

Since you have behaved respectfully until now I will ONEchance to display the appropriate level of contrition and go back to being respectful and appropriate.

Demonstrate an appropriate understanding of that, or, at minimum, a willingness to learn and an appropriately respectful attitude and we wont have any more trouble.

yeah... if you don't want to sound like a manstplaining man, then don't. Or do. It's your life, friend.

The balls you have, to come in with your cut n paste diatribes, and be wrong on basic things, then lecture harangue and patronise people with actual educations in the subject matter. I mean those balls have got to be titanium alloy, right?

Metaphorically, I mean. I have no idea of your ballular status, and frankly I'm OK with that.

I'm interested to hear more about this.

At the same time, it's interesting to have a live demonstration on the thread of exactly why women don't want males in their spaces - no matter what effect exogenous hormones have on a person they clearly and obviously aren't turning a man into a woman.

So yes, one could say that a.man who takes oestrogen is a man with altered morphology and chemistry, sure. That doesn't make him a woman.

Very good point, you'll know a lot more than me, and I wager from more up-to-date source material too (last time I was in the genetics books was 26 years ago, our knowledge, especially of epigenetic factors and effects, has grown massively since then)

I guess I was privileged to learn at a time when so many things were quite new and the science was moving fast, but I've been out for a long time and probably wouldn't be able to follow a lot of it these days.

It's a bit like saying to the younglings 'I remember Pong' and they're playing Call of Duty in 4K and they're like 'err, ok boomer'.

Disregarding women's boundaries makes him a misogynist tho.

So @ancuruadh came back late at night but didn't answer any questions?

I genuinely wanted to know how transgender children are treated differently to (and less favourably than) children who are not transgender.

If, for example, they are made to use the toilets corresponding to their biological sex, they are being treated the same as other children.

If they are allowed to use the toilets corresponding to the opposite sex because they believe this aligns with their gender identity, they are being treated more favourably than the other children because the other children are not allowed to do this and because the feelings of the transgender children are being prioritised over those of the other children who would prefer these facilities to remain single sex.

What am I missing?

Sure. It's just the idea - which I've seen discussed before - that if someone alters some elements of their sex characteristics that necessarily makes them the opposite sex.

Rather a <binary> way of treating it.

In earthier terms, Jordan Grey stripping on Channel 4 showed very clearly a male body with fake breasts added is not a female body.

Oh, I completely agree. Sorry if that wasn't clear!

The definition of a woman never starts with 'a man who <insert thing he's done to himself here>'.

I mean, can the projection and DARVO be any clearer? As PP has said, it is like the abusers character that a being channeled through all the posts now.

Can you suggest at what point a male human taking a cocktail of hormones to change aspects of their body becomes a female human ?

And not just a male person who has taken artificial hormones and caused some changes but still has working testes producing testosterone?

Maybe if you have a definition that you use to categorise male and female humans it will also help to give us ‘fuller’ knowledge. And if you don’t have ‘complete’ knowledge, who do you recommend does and can discuss this? Does anyone have complete knowledge?

You lot.

Bingo.

Lots of interesting definitions and interpretations of what words and terms mean.

This person has clearly demonstrated why women don't want to, and shouldn't have to, allow men into their single sex spaces.

My boundary is not to let men into women's and girls' single sex spaces. That doesn't make me an abuser.

As others have said, this thread has been so helpful to demonstrate the progression of DARVO in real time, that fake breasts don't take away male entitlement, and the level of hatred and spite shown when women point out the immutable facts of reality.

Oh and the mansplaining and condescension, which have been off the charts.

Well I have saved this thread to post next time someone tries to tell me that they are very cool to allow males into female single sex spaces.

You do like to make assumptions about situations about which you have only a scrap of knowledge, don’t you?

I would like to thank @ancuruadh for proving correct my claim, made repeatedly over several years, that TRAs who come on here a) can never honestly answer a direct question and b) desperately try to turn every post into a comment about what posters on this board are like regardless of the OP.

It's called community disrupting, and it's very predictable.

Feel free to answer the questions I put to fieldofgreycorn, but I know you can't.

And why would a Canadian anime fan be patrolling a British mumsnet board - dedicated to discussing women's rights and issues. You are displaying the exact behaviours you are accusing others of. Your tone is non stop accusation and harassment. You are not an ally to women in any way - you are an ally to your own self preoccupation only.

Translation: whenever someone writes this on a forum it's because they can't honestly respond to what was actually written, so have to change it in some pathetic straw man attempt. You realise we can all see you doing this, right?

"I think being homosexual is ok"
"Translation - you hate disabled people, ugh omg you're awful"