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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 00:14

This is why people and groups representing those with DSDs have successfully campaigned for no permanent hormonal treatment or surgery to be done until a child reaches 18 and is old enough to decide for themselves

Is this widely accepted in the UK? I cant find any information saying this has been agreed.

IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 00:23

Can anyone explain or provide a link about 46XY (as stated in the article)?

On the web site UK Intersex Association "46XY" is not listed http://www.ukia.co.uk/ukia/ukia-guide/index.html

And google results quote web sites that say "most individuals with 46, XY DSD have a completely female phenotype" and yet the article in the telegraph talks about altering her gender (I assume they mean sex) from male to female.

Marynotsocontrary · 26/08/2023 00:39

46,XY just means male

IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 00:43

46,XY just means male

Thanks my tired brain misremembered what phenotype meant.

NotBadConsidering · 26/08/2023 00:48

IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 00:14

This is why people and groups representing those with DSDs have successfully campaigned for no permanent hormonal treatment or surgery to be done until a child reaches 18 and is old enough to decide for themselves

Is this widely accepted in the UK? I cant find any information saying this has been agreed.

In some jurisdictions legislation has been passed, such as the ACT in Australia. In other areas it’s professionally accepted that non-urgent with a degree of permanence ne delayed if possible and it’s definitely agreed that children are no longer “made” to look like or be the opposite sex.

There are a few issues, such as what has been included as DSD. For example some proposed legislation has included hypospadias, which is not a DSD but a urogenital developmental abnormality that occurs in males. The idea that these abnormalities should not be repaired lest a boy grow up and be happy to pee out of his scrotum or perineum is clearly bonkers.

Similarly the ACT legislation requires doctors to apply for permission to hormonally treat certain conditions such as CAH which is equally stupid.

But the underlying point is that with these such conditions it needs to be very clear there is a medical necessity to alter a child’s body. Whereas WPATH want children to be allowed to do this on their declared identity.

TammyJones · 26/08/2023 01:21

Many years ago, the series'Master of Sex' did an episode about this. Very tactfully done.
The episode was set in the sixties I think.

IwantToRetire · 26/08/2023 01:59

In some jurisdictions legislation has been passed, such as the ACT in Australia.

Thanks - I thought you were referring to the UK.

I know one of the independent intersex groups (ie not part of the rainbow umbrella) were campaigning on this, but hadden heard much lately.

I suspect their work has just been ignored in favour of the easy option of assuming the "I" is covered by the alphabet soup and so journalists etc., have stopped bothering to actually investigate and report from those directly concerned.

sashh · 26/08/2023 02:16

Another one here

https://www.itv.com/news/anglia/2015-11-06/man-who-was-raised-a-girl-calls-for-ban-on-surgery-until-children-can-make-up-their-own-minds

I remember when 'Joella' got a new birth certificate.

queentim · 26/08/2023 02:19

What an interesting article.

It seems like a lot of difficult decisions were made during a time with little information and lots of pressure to make black and wjite decisions all around. It seems like everyone thought they were acting in the best interests of the baby at the time (i.e., preventing future complications snd hospitalizations).

It's sad that they went through drug use, depression, alcoholism, but glad to hear they made their way through.

sashh · 26/08/2023 04:04

queentim · 26/08/2023 02:19

What an interesting article.

It seems like a lot of difficult decisions were made during a time with little information and lots of pressure to make black and wjite decisions all around. It seems like everyone thought they were acting in the best interests of the baby at the time (i.e., preventing future complications snd hospitalizations).

It's sad that they went through drug use, depression, alcoholism, but glad to hear they made their way through.

I think in the past there was a lot of 'normalising' of anyone who didn't fit a particular 'ideal' eg children who had disabilities caused by thalidomide were fitted with artificial limbs, as adults most don't use them now.

So the thinking of the day to normalise and surgery at that time could more easily create what looked like a girl than a boy.

It was seen as a soloution rather than thinking about what might be available surgically in the future.

Offyoupoplove · 26/08/2023 07:27

It’s utterly shocking this was still happening in the 80s.

Thelonelygiraffe · 26/08/2023 07:38

What a story. Sophie sounds like an amazing person, and her parents tried to deal with things the best they could, given very limited information and being rushed into a decision by the surgeon.

Decideforme · 26/08/2023 07:59

I worked in a UK NICU in 2005. We had a baby with ambiguous genitalia and I thought they would do karotyping to determine the sex. The consultants said that the karotype didn't matter and the test was "Will this child be able to stand against a wall and pee." If yes, they would assign it male, if no, female. I was so shocked that the doctors would 'play God' and I left shortly after.

TheGoodBanana · 26/08/2023 08:13

That is a heart breaking story. I don't think anyone acted maliciously though, medicine has moved on massively (I hope) and different decisions would be made today but it seemed like everyone thought they were doing what was in Sophie's best interests.

So sad.

thatisnotthefulltruth · 26/08/2023 09:43

That is why some people and groups representing those with DSDs have campaigned for this.

DSDs are hugely complicated and diverse, and so are the medical needs involved. Plenty of DSD organisations hence support people living with a DSD and their families to access treatment (incl. interventions of a hormonal treatment or surgical nature) or continue a wait-and-see approach, depending on what makes sense in their specific case. There are some interventions which are more effective earlier on. There really is no one size fits all approach.

Ensuring that parents are well informed, dare to ask questions, understand biases in their thinking, have access to psychological support, etc. is key. Ditto for health workers.

WorriedMutha · 26/08/2023 09:48

Shocking but we can all see that it was done with the best of intentions for her welfare based on the knowledge of the 80s. What excuse will society have in 20 years time for the irreversible mutilation and medication of children based on their feelings in the current regime.

Rightsraptor · 26/08/2023 10:09

Some of Sophie's surgery was essential. She couldn't be left with a urinary bladder, in two parts, on the outside of the body. Some of the intestine was also external.

The penis was described as small & split. Did this split involve the urethra? We don't know, though we do know Sophie continues to wears pads as she's incontinent. Could the penis have been reconstructed to make it whole, maybe hormones given at the appropriate time to encourage growth, the testes left in situ and perhaps give Sophie a chance at a normal male life?

I'd like to know how such a baby would be treated in the UK today.

I'm horried at pp's comment about doctors saying better to be an infertile woman than an impotent man. Just so revealing.

Wbeezer · 26/08/2023 13:24

As I mentioned up thread, I know a man who was born with the same condition who is in his 40s and had to have everything reconstructed ( not back to fully normal appearance or function) so feminising boys with this condition was not universal even years ago.

GardenersDelight · 26/08/2023 16:23

@rightsraptor yes the urethra can be split all the way to the end

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 26/08/2023 16:45

I’m not so sure about the National Homicide Service. If the doctors had done nothing, the baby would probably have died quite nastily. His intestines and internal genitalia were on the outside of his body! The fact that he needed five follow up operations shows how serious the condition was.

I think the main problem was the secrecy and misinformation. I cannot believe that his parents went along with this for anything other than the best of motives.

I was at school with a ‘girl’ who had been born with ‘ambiguous genitalia’ ( that was the phrase used sixty years ago when this happened). When she was thirteen, she transferred to the boys school, I believe that she had an operation to ? Release? a previously internal testicle. He did quite well and I think lived a decent life.

How can the TRAs weaponise such distress?

Sisterpita · 26/08/2023 17:37

@TheDogthatDug The article refers to a documentary about a social experiment on triplets. I saw the documentary and the impact on all 3 was horrific.

The problem is that doctors etc. see babies like Sophie as interesting and apply scientific research, ideas, theories and completely forget about the person who has to live with their batshit recommendations. I hope that these days babies like Sophie are treated far more conservatively so they have choices later in life.

Forwarder · 26/08/2023 18:02

Grazia definition of 'intersex' is well out of date

Forwarder · 26/08/2023 18:04

The thinking of these doctors is that absence of penis = female.

Better a non-man than a substandard man?

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