Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex & gender in 2023

151 replies

ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 11:23

This thread is an attempt at a broad overview of where we are now, especially for those new to to the issues involved.

Main issues:

  • Impacts of sex and gender in legislation on women's rights
  • Safeguarding
  • Children, young people, and 'gender incongruence'
  • Freedom of speech, thought, and belief

Input and questions welcome! Please keep it factual and concise.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
54
OP posts:
ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 11:27

Reading list:

Defending Women's Spaces - Karen Ingala Smith

Time to Think - Hannah Barnes

Invisible Women - Caroline Criado Perez

We Should All be Feminists - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie

Irreversible Damage - Abigail Shrier

Home Grown, Joan Smith.

The Whole Woman, Germaine Greer

The Female Eunuch, Germaine Greer

Hags, Victoria Smith

Trans, Helen Joyce

Material Girls, Kathleen Stock

Feminism for Women, Julie Bindel

Gender-Critical Feminism by Holly Lawford-Smith

Unfair Play: The Battle For Women's Sport by Sharron Davies

The End of Gender: Debunking the Myths about Sex and Identity in Our Society
by Debra Soh

Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters
by Abigail Shrier

Wild Women of a Certain Age - Magi Gibson

My Body is Me - Rachel Rooney

Born in the Right Body: Gender identity ideology from a medical and feminist perspective by Isidora Sanger

Testosterone, Caroline Hooven

Feminism against Progress, Mary Harrington

The case against the Sexual Revolution, Louise Perry

Galileo's Middle Finger, by Alice Dreger

Men's section:

Richard Dawkins - The God Delusion

The End of the World is Flat - Simon Barnes

The Madness of Crowds - Douglas Murray

The New Puritans - Andrew Doyle

Rationality: What It Is, Why It Seems Scarce, Why It Matters by Steven Pinker

OP posts:
OP posts:
Tricyrtis2022 · 19/08/2023 11:38

Thanks for this, I shall read with interest and hope I can contribute here and there.

Waitwhat23 · 19/08/2023 11:48

The start of my list of possible subjects -

History of FWR
Board split
Intern
Early posters deleted

History of the GRA

Stonewall
Stonewall 'law'
Current position
CEO's past and present

Acronyms/terms
TRA
GC
AGP
Cis

Theorists/writers
Judith Butler
Andrea Dworkin
Germaine Greer
Victoria Smith
Susan Dalgety
Kathleen Stock

Court cases

EQA 2010
Protected characteristics
Single Sex Exemptions

Prisons
Judicial review
KPSS

Sports
Emma Hamilton
Jon Pike
Sharon Davies
Reilly Gaines
Martina Navratilova
Laurel Hubard

Lia Thomas
Weightlifting
Cycling
Rio 2006
Records decimated
Physical differences
Safety issues

Rape Crisis Services
Edinburgh Rape Crisis
Mridul Wadhwa
Brighton Rape Crisis/I am Sarah

Media
IPOS guidelines
Reduxx

Feminist groups
Filia
A Women's Place
'WEP'

Scottish specific
SPS policy
Isla Bryson
GRR bill
Nicola Sturgeon
Women won't wheesht
For Women Scotland
MBM

ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 12:00

I'll start with an easy one!

Acronyms/terms
TRA
GC
AGP
Cis

TRA - trans rights activist - someone working to ensure that 'gender' is favoured over 'sex'. NOT synonymous with trans.

GC - 'gender critical' - term applied to feminists who are critical of 'gender'

'gender' - a collection of socially maintained ideas about sex

'AGP' - a contentious term coined by sexologist Ray Blanchard to describe males who are sexually excited by the thought of themselves presenting as women

'Cis' - a contentious term used by trans rights activists to apply to people who are not trans.

OP posts:
OP posts:
Farmageddon · 19/08/2023 12:05

Yay, well done OP, it's good to have an updated resource.

I will recommend Helen Joyce as someone I have listened to over the last few years, she is brilliant - clear, concise, articulate, fearless. She helped me to formulate some arguments in my head, when I was stuck thinking - I know that's ridiculous, but I can't quite explain why...
Her book Trans is also really great, very well researched.

FYI though - be careful with certain acronyms, Mumsnet usually bans any mention of a certain one. We are not allowed to acknowledge it exists, therefore it is not a problem.

Farmageddon · 19/08/2023 12:08

Just want to add more Helen Joyce love - here is an interview from a few years ago that I have shared a few times.

It's brilliant because it goes over a lot of the basics about why this isn't actually a civil rights movement, why the language distortion is so damaging, body denialism and the impacts of Self Identification etc.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/08/2023 12:15

Great thread. Hope this isn't too wordy a contribution.
Schools:
Indoctrination of children in schools by trans activists is a major issue with the government still having failed to address the problem. The DfE have embarrassingly funded and promoted political activist groups (like Stonewall) who campaign to remove sex based rights of women & girls. Thus schools become a hostile environment for girls who are compelled to share toilets, changing rooms & even dormitories with boys claiming to be girls.
Safeguarding is openly undermined with numerous schools believing they can transition children in secret from their parents.
LGBT groups are set up that breach safeguarding with adults and older students discussing sex, sexual relationships & gender identity with younger children - in an environment with no identified curriculum, minimal oversight & accountability. This exposes children to the risk of age inappropriate content, grooming and older students / adults to allegations of sexually inappropriate behaviour towards children.
Groups steeped in queer theory / trans extremism have self identified as "educators" in sex ed / PSHE and foolish schools lacking in due diligence pay them to provide sometimes porn soaked /age inappropriate materials for children of all ages - again in the absence of any government advice.
With the DfE & Ofsted having only recently abandoned Stonewall and the teacher's unions (including Headteachers) all signed up to trans groups, it's now down to parents to insist that schools remain politically impartial as required by law. The Education Act 1996 (sections 406 / 407) states that schools should not promote partisan political views and should take steps to ensure the balanced presentation of opposing views on political issues when they are brought to the attention of pupils.

Safe Schools Alliance, Transgender Trend & Sex Matters (all referenced above in Arabella's 11.32 post) have lots of material to help parents challenge those schools who are failing to safeguard children in this way.

There's a massive task ahead to tackle schools about this.

TheGreatATuin · 19/08/2023 12:41

There's a lot to take in but I think it helps to remember it's all grounded in gender stereotypes and the enforcement of them
Its also not a case of right vs left wing. This is actually a deeply regressive movement.
I think the best explanation I've seen looks something like this:
Religious right: biological sex is real and gender stereotypes are innate.
Trans activists: biological sex isn't real, gender stereotypes overrides it.
Gender critical feminists: biological sex is real, gender stereotypes are not innate.

WarriorN · 19/08/2023 12:51

Brilliant thread thank you.

I'm going to add

www.transwidowsvoices.org/

childrenoftransitioners.org/

As important sources of how a parent or partner transitioning can be emotionally abusive. Sadly also physically abusive and financially too.

Tricyrtis2022 · 19/08/2023 12:59

This is worth reading. Eva Kurilova writes about how men, whom none of this really affects directly, harp on at women who are being asked to give up everything.

"It Doesn't Affect Me"

- A man who is moments away from calling me a TERF or a Nazi

https://www.evakurilova.com/p/it-doesnt-affect-me

WarriorN · 19/08/2023 13:02

History of WPATH, the american organisation that "advises " and writes guidelines for transgender healthcare, is an important topic to be aware of.

It is not a professional body in the way that the British medical society is. Anyone can become a member.

However it has built itself into claiming to be the gold standard of care. Organisations/ charities such as Mermaids in the U.K., followed and championed WPATH guidelines.

Genevieve Gluck (of reduxx and women are human) has researched quite a lot about individuals linked to and influencing WPATH.

She has also spent a lot of time researching the links between porn and transgender identities, including historically.

EdithStourton · 19/08/2023 13:18

Very slightly off-topic, but if anyone goes off to read scientific papers about all this, it's worth being armed with a basic understanding of how the scientific method can go wrong or be deliberately abused. To that end, I'd recommend Science Fictions by Stuart Ritchie. Easy reading for non-scientists.

WarriorN · 19/08/2023 13:30

Yes it's very much about the money. Jennifer Bilek has been doing a lot of research into that area:

www.feministcurrent.com/2023/08/06/jennifer-bilek-on-the-true-roots-of-the-transgender-movement/

"Jennifer Bilek is a writer, a journalist, and an artist. As many of us struggled to understand the seemingly sudden onset of gender identity ideology and wonder how it took hold of institutions so quickly, Jennifer dug in and found the truth: billionaires, biotech, and transhumanists.

In this episode, I speak with Jennifer about her research and what she found about the roots of the transgender movement after “following the money.”
Find more of Jennifer’s work at the 11th Hour blog or on Substack."

It sounds conspiracy theory esque. It really does. But she's made so many links to billionaires, funding of medical centres for peads etc.

America relies on insurance driven healthcare, the nhs has more gatekeeping to an extent. Expect that vast increases in individuals seeking "treatment" (thanks to the internet) obviously drives demand.

WarriorN · 19/08/2023 13:36

basic understanding of how the scientific method can go wrong or be deliberately abused

There are research topics in journals being set up with the basic premise that "children are trans" as an innate inner state which generates an evidence base of research papers.

That starting point of the fact that a child is trans because they say so, is not explored but is accepted implicitly.

Thus the idea becomes fact as there's a body of written articles to quote in further research, and so the Russian doll grows.

www.frontiersin.org/research-topics/11009/lgbt-inclusion-in-schools#articles

Fukuraptor · 19/08/2023 13:46

I really began to get my head around this issue when I understood a key error that TRAs/captured society was making.

Trans identified adults (historically mainly males who wished to appear like women) often report knowing they were really the opposite sex as a child, a feeling which persisted into adulthood and caused them to transition.

People assume that this means children with cross sex identification, or even just kids who are outside stereotypes of what girls and boys like, would grow up to be trans. And so to be compassionate and accepting we should usher them into this identity and medically transition them ASAP.

But they have got that wrong. There have been studies that have followed children who feel and act this way without affirming them or transitioning them. Only a small minority persistently identify as trans. The majority are same-sex attracted and the rest are just not stereotypical of their sex (like a flamboyant or sensitive man).

So socially or even medically transitioning these children is wrong, we ought to wait until they are adults and let them decide how to live their lives then.

What's more, there has been a humongous increase in the numbers of adolescent girls with no history of gender issues, suddenly identifying as trans after others in their friend groups have, or after being immersed in gender ideology through social media. This group is often referred to as having ROGD (rapid onset gender dysphoria).

It's thought that:
autistic girls (rigid thinking about stereotypes, feeling different, struggling to relate socially with their female peers),
lesbians and bisexual girls (struggling with crushes on heterosexual friends, lesbophobia, feeling less conforming to feminine ideals, interests similar to boys) and
girls suffering from trauma (feeling dissociated from their body, wanting to be less vulnerable, not wanting sexual attention from men/boys, trying to find acceptance and community)

are particularly vulnerable to the zeitgeist that offers up transition as a magical answer to their problems.

But any gender non-conformity is getting pattern matched by our pattern seeking brains as being "oh, possibly they are trans" when in previous decades they would have been just part of the spectrum of girlhood, perhaps called tomboys or butch, but not expected to take hormones or surgery to become more Man-like.

A lot of the most outspoken voices criticising gender ideology are from grown women who have been non-conforming teen girls uncomfortable with puberty, homophobia and societies sexist expectations of us and yet are women at peace with our bodies and often mums and grandmas who appreciate what our female bodies have allowed us, even whilst still battling sexism/homophobia etc.

Further reading
Trans - Helen Joyce
Time to Think - Hannah Barnes
Irreversible Damage - Abigail Shrier

Personally I have listening to the stories of detransitioners to be important to understanding how young people fall come to these ideas about themselves, how they come out of it and the harm caused by the current affirmation only culture, especially in "healthcare" - the lack of care about the health of these young people is striking.

Benjamin Boyce has a YouTube channel which has long form conversations with detransitioners.

Jordan Peterson has a famous interview with Chloe Cole who also speaks with other detransitioners on her own YouTube channel.

I'm sure there are others.

Desist
Children who think of themselves as the opposite sex but grow out of it.
Detransitioners: people who identified as trans, started down the transition pathway, often having hormones and/or surgery before realising it wasn't the right path for them. They cease to identify as the opposite sex but have to live with the irreversible consequences of transition.

Chloe Cole interviewed by Jordan Peterson

WarriorN · 19/08/2023 13:57

The Tavistock’s Experiment with Puberty Blockers

Michael Biggs

Department of Sociology and St Cross College, University of Oxford (version 1.0.1, 29 July 2019)

In 1994 a 16-year-old girl who wished to be a boy, known to us as B, entered the Amsterdam Gender Clinic. She was unique for having her sexual development halted at the age of 13, after an adventurous paediatric endocrinologist gave her a Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone agonist (GnRHa).

Originally developed to treat prostate cancer, these drugs are also used to delay puberty when it develops abnormally early: in girls younger than 8, and boys younger than 9. The endocrinologist’s innovation was to use the drug to stop normal puberty altogether, in order to prevent the development of unwanted secondary sexual characteristics—with the aim of administering cross-sex hormones in later adolescence.

Dutch clinicians used B’s case to create a new protocol for transgendering children, which enabled physical intervention at an age far below the normal age of consent (Cohen-Kettenis and Goozen 1998).

The Dutch protocol promised to create a more passable simulacrum of the opposite sex than could be achieved by physical intervention in adulthood. It was therefore embraced by trans-identified children and their parents, by older transgender activists, and by some clinicians specializing in gender dysphoria.

The Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS), part of the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, treats children with gender dysphoria from England, Wales, and Northern Ireland. It launched an experimental study of “puberty blockers”the more friendly term for GnRHa when administered to children with gender dysphoriain 2011.

The experiment gave triptorelin to 44 children, which in all or almost all cases led eventually to cross-sex hormones.

This paper describes the origins and conduct of this study and scrutinizes the evidence on its outcomes. It draws on information obtained by requests under the Freedom of Information Act to the Tavistock, to the NHS Health Research Authority, and to University College London (UCL).

I will argue that the experimental study did not properly inform children and their parents of the risks of triptorelin.

I will also demonstrate that the study’s preliminary results were more negative than positive, and that the single published scientific article using data from the study is fatally flawed by a statistical fallacy.

My conclusion is that GIDS and their collaborators at UCL have either ignored or suppressed negative evidence. Therefore the NHS had no justification for introducing the Dutch protocol as general policy in 2014.

https://users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf

WarriorN · 19/08/2023 13:59

Things have moved on thanks to Cass but this article includes things around WPATH, GIRES and mermaids, also Susie green.

ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 14:13

WarriorN · 19/08/2023 13:02

History of WPATH, the american organisation that "advises " and writes guidelines for transgender healthcare, is an important topic to be aware of.

It is not a professional body in the way that the British medical society is. Anyone can become a member.

However it has built itself into claiming to be the gold standard of care. Organisations/ charities such as Mermaids in the U.K., followed and championed WPATH guidelines.

Genevieve Gluck (of reduxx and women are human) has researched quite a lot about individuals linked to and influencing WPATH.

She has also spent a lot of time researching the links between porn and transgender identities, including historically.

WPATH are the reason NHS Scotland had to refer themselves to the police for hosting CSA on one of their websites.

WPATH posit that Eunuch is a gender and those who ID as such are entitled to penectomies and testes removal etc.

Several NHS staff are members.

OP posts:
LoobiJee · 19/08/2023 14:26

ArabeIIaScott · 19/08/2023 12:03

An amusing and descriptive account of events from around 2013-2018 from Jane Clare Jones:

https://janeclarejones.com/2018/11/13/the-annals-of-the-terf-wars/

Ha! Several years wittily and accurately summed up in a few exchanges there.

I think my favourite bit was this….

“Women: We’re oppressing you by wanting to be called women??? What the hell is….
Trans activists: BIGOTS! These are your new words. You are cis women, and we are trans women. We are both just different types of women, except we’re more oppressed than you so you have to do what we say. Look, there’s nothing you can do about it, the government already agrees with us, see?
Women: The government already agrees with you? What?
Trans activists: Yes. REPEAT AFTER US: Trans women are women. The government believes this and is going to change the law so that we can be legally recognised as female if we sign a piece of paper that says we have magic woman essence…
Women: What??? This can’t be right. Surely someone would have said something about this? Where are the feminists? Feminists, is this right?
Feminists: U-huh. We were trying to….
Women: What are the implications of this???
Feminists: montage of charts and essays* three weeks later*
Women: Fuck this shit. We need to do something.
Feminists: YES. WE. DO.”

JCJ’s blogpost dates back a few years now, but in effect we are still at the “montage of charts and essays’ stage - this thread being just such a montage.