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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
Melroses · 18/08/2023 21:38

Will have to read it properly, but that sounds like a fair interpretation in my experience.

BettyFilous · 18/08/2023 21:39

We grumble on FWR about all the fence-sitting equivocators. Its rather refreshing to see someone dismount and state their position so decisively.

PorcelinaV · 18/08/2023 21:40

Quoting from source given:

The tweet began with a popular phrase within the trans community: “Sex is not the same as gender”.

But Dawkins went on the debunk this: “But it’s not your gender that gives you the physique to tower over woman athletes & break their swimming records. It’s your sex. It’s not your undressed gender that upsets women in changing rooms. It’s your sex. You can’t eat your cake & have it.”

The complaint was over-ruled by Twitter, in a move Dawkins saw as “sensible”.

Dawkins believed that the user who complained was sincere in their outrage, but pins this down to a “paranoid hypersensitivity that almost literally warps their hearing”.

The God Delusion author said that some activists choose not to listen to counter-arguments, instead only hearing “hate hate hate”.

...

Dawkins also mentioned a recent YouTube interview with journalist Helen Joyce, discussing her 2021 book Trans.
In her book, Joyce criticises the transgender movement and activism associated with it.

The interview has been well-received on YouTube according to the biologist, and he gives credit to its success to Joyce, who he describes as “extremely well-informed in her subject”.

However, the video was deemed as “hateful and derogatory content” by YouTube, who restricted its license to advertise.

Dawkins pointed to the “warped ears” of people who were unwilling to engage in debate, and instead try to censor content they saw as “hateful”.

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Booklistsbegone · 18/08/2023 22:07

I've never particularly liked Richard Dawkins. (He came across as an arrogant prick in one of his books which turned me off him.) But I agree with him here. Maybe it's arrogance which allows him the confidence to speak, but I'm grateful whatever the reason.

nauticant · 18/08/2023 22:34

That's a sensible way to think about things:

This person in front of me, despite them having annoyed me in the past, is what they're saying/doing right now helpful to society or is it harmful?

As a bonus, it saves a lot of time by not having to agonise over what one is permitted to think.

PonyPatter44 · 18/08/2023 22:44

Richard Dawkins taught my friend when we were at uni. Likeability has never been one of his strong points, but he has never ever failed to state scientific facts, regardless of other people's hurty feelz.

Also good luck to the TRAs trying to paint him as funded by the American Christian right 😄😄😄

BabyShaark · 18/08/2023 23:13

I wholeheartedly agree with Dawkins.

As a Christian I never thought I’d ever say this 😂

Booklistsbegone · 18/08/2023 23:16

Also good luck to the TRAs trying to paint him as funded by the American Christian right 😄😄😄

Good point@PonyPatter44😁

Devilsmommy · 18/08/2023 23:20

BabyShaark · 18/08/2023 23:13

I wholeheartedly agree with Dawkins.

As a Christian I never thought I’d ever say this 😂

Would love to send him this 😆😆😆

Booklistsbegone · 18/08/2023 23:29

An issue is that at least some trans activists believe (or say they believe) that people are the sex they identify as, not just the gender. I used to think that it was a divide between biological sex and internal feelings of gender, but apparently many tras don't think like this at all. Helen Joyce explains it well in her book. So Dawkins separation of sex and gender may not work for people who think like this. And they're the very people his comments are aimed at.

PorcelinaV · 19/08/2023 03:57

Booklistsbegone · 18/08/2023 23:29

An issue is that at least some trans activists believe (or say they believe) that people are the sex they identify as, not just the gender. I used to think that it was a divide between biological sex and internal feelings of gender, but apparently many tras don't think like this at all. Helen Joyce explains it well in her book. So Dawkins separation of sex and gender may not work for people who think like this. And they're the very people his comments are aimed at.

Wouldn't that just be either insane, or they are trying to use words in a different way to everyone else?

Seems like Dawkins would find it easy enough to respond to such lunatics.

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mrshoho · 19/08/2023 07:17

It is good to hear Dawkins speaking out and writing. Of course he is just confirming what many women and some men have been pointing out for years and years. Many many more people will sit up and take note of Dawkins which although annoying is also very good.

crunchermuncher · 19/08/2023 08:47

"Wouldn't that just be either insane, or they are trying to use words in a different way to everyone else?"

Nicely summed up!

Abhannmor · 19/08/2023 09:15

About bleeding time Mr Dawkins. The Pope of atheism has broken his silence at last.

My tuppence worth - let's go back to the original meaning of the word Gender : Sex. As for the fashions , mannerisms, clothing etc which various societies have arbitrarily ascribed to the sexes , surely we can find a more appropriate word. This evasive ambiguity is a big part of the problem imo.

SecretShambles · 19/08/2023 11:48

Booklistsbegone · 18/08/2023 22:07

I've never particularly liked Richard Dawkins. (He came across as an arrogant prick in one of his books which turned me off him.) But I agree with him here. Maybe it's arrogance which allows him the confidence to speak, but I'm grateful whatever the reason.

He's also too old, too rich and too established to be cancelled

Boiledbeetle · 19/08/2023 12:01

I know a lot of the paranoia is driven by the lack is ability to read material that isn't spoon feed to them by activists with other agendas, but I'm honestly starting to wonder if taking cross sex hormones actually messes with your brain to a much more serious degree than I'd thought. I imagine your system being flooded with a hormone that's not supposed to be there in such quantities cannot be a good thing, we know it has the ability to fuck with the rest of the body so i can only imagine what's happening to peoples brains that we can't see.

Anactor · 19/08/2023 12:01

BabyShaark · 18/08/2023 23:13

I wholeheartedly agree with Dawkins.

As a Christian I never thought I’d ever say this 😂

Yes.

As another Christian, I’d say this is proof that we need to look at the statement, not the person saying it.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 19/08/2023 12:19

Boiledbeetle · 19/08/2023 12:01

I know a lot of the paranoia is driven by the lack is ability to read material that isn't spoon feed to them by activists with other agendas, but I'm honestly starting to wonder if taking cross sex hormones actually messes with your brain to a much more serious degree than I'd thought. I imagine your system being flooded with a hormone that's not supposed to be there in such quantities cannot be a good thing, we know it has the ability to fuck with the rest of the body so i can only imagine what's happening to peoples brains that we can't see.

I've wondered that as well. Part of puberty is dealing with the mental changes of adult hormone levels.

With puberty it's a gradual change that your peers go through at the same time, and generally you are surrounded by understanding and supportive adults at home and school.

But I do wonder what swiching hormone profile as an adult and dealing with something like puberty all over again does to emotional regulation.

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