Autistic teen and pronouns

[Badgaston]

My dd is 14 and autistic (she’s also got adhd). Very gender critical household, older dd is also GC. I’m very GC and have always encouraged playing with all types of toys when the kids were growing up, they’d be dressed in all sorts of clothes, encouraged to try anything they’d like to. DD 14 has come out and said she’d like to use they/them pronouns. She hates having breasts and periods. We’ve had lots of discussions around how she’s female and that will never change that and yes periods are annoying but she’s adamant that she feels happier being they/them. She’s also talked about breast surgery when she’s older (she’s roughly a C cup now).

I’m unsure whether to do anything. I won’t be using they/them when she’s not around anyway. Part of it I feel is she’s expressed how she finds being autistic very hard so I feel it’s a bit of a way of coping with that.

Hi OP, I found this a really good place to start for a general understanding of the conflation of autism and gender identity:

Transgender Trend

There are quite a few threads on this board that cover the subject. Googling something like "Mumsnet autism gender" would probably bring up several.

From my own experience of working through it with my daughter, my thoughts on how autism and the questioning of gender identity overlap are as follows:

A resistance to change - your own body changing is the ultimate betrayal. How dare my body do this? It must need fixing.

Sensory - boobs feel weird in clothing. They get in the way. I don't need them.

Sensory - Periods are awful. What's the point in having them. I don't want children anyway.

Androgyny - Many autistic girls don't see any point in the impracticality of skirts, dresses, sequins, hair accessories etc. I like wearing "boys' clothes"

Anxiety/low self-esteem/being bullied for being a "weirdo".... and...

Social media combined with Be Kind - there is community out there that is calling me in. They don't bully me. They understand me and I can find my people here.

Exiting girlhood - girls are weak. If I was stronger I could stop those bullies.

Obsession/fixation/locked in thinking - There is an answer! I must be a boy! It is the only logical explanation. I'm not going to change my mind. I'm determined.

The bias in the medical and mental health professions - let's start by affirming your identity and take it one step at a time. Change your name, change your pronouns... Not feeling better yet? OK, let's bind your breasts. Still not feeling any better and your breasts are now getting bigger... OK, let's put you on puberty blockers to give you some time to think and pause your physical development before you feel any worse... Still no better? Have some hormones. Still no better and you've got back pain from all the binding...? Well, "top surgery" is your answer. Check out all these happy cool people who are posting photos of themselves with their surgery scars. Do you want to feel like that too? Instead of: let's explore why you're feeling at odds with your body.. and how that might link to your wider mental health issues and experiences.

We've found that sports bras and the mini-pill have been very helpful in reducing the stress associated with our daughter's changing body. They are not silver bullets and we're still working through some difficulties but they certainly help to slow the pace of the change resulting from puberty, to give her more chance to get accustomed to it all.

@BonfireLady, that’s really helpful thank you. I just had a real brain dead moment of not actually putting that into Google.

Thats really helpful what you’ve written about your dd. I had a chat with my DD and she said it was exactly how she felt so I suspect being autistic and the feeling of being different (her eldest NT sister is only a year older) alongside her changing body is a huge part of the reason.

My DD is 15 now and is also autistic. When she was around 10/11 she talked about wanting to be a boy.

Luckily is was before the current intense media prasuee around trans and pronouns etc....

I think it's a challenge for autistic girls for all the reasons in the previous post. The pill has really helped here to, she knows exactly when her period will start so feels more on control.

She is very happy being a young women now but hates dresses, make up, most jewellery etc... it took time to realise that she could be a woman and be herself but once she did she had no thought of being male.

It's tough being a teen but being autistic to makes it even harder...

Keep talking....

I recommend this Autism, puberty, and gender dysphoria: the view from an autistic desisted woman

May sound like a slightly mad suggestion, but it may be worth looking into local colour season consultants like House of Colour, who do both colour analysis and style advice, and trying booking a session just for the two of you together. With a good consultant it's all about noticing and recognising the best features you have and about appreciating your own body as it is now. I found it an incredibly therapeutic experience when I was younger and going through a major phase of loathing my body. If the two of you go together it can just be a half day of fun to enjoy, but you can quietly steer the consultant to use their skills particularly for your teen's body confidence and recognition of what is unique and great about their features. HoC work with both sexes, it's not a sexed activity, so no pressure towards femininity or anything else.

If you can access academic articles one called 'autism and the ghost of gender' is good read

I think you’d be better off supporting them while they find their identity, rather than pushing your gender critical views.

You’ve literally called them ‘she’ ten times in your opening post.

Why? Will their identity change what sex this child is?

Do you know what this child needs better than the child's mother?

Clearly I don’t know the child, but I am confident that supporting them in their journey will have a better outcome than standing by transphobic views.

if ‘mother knows best’, OP wouldn’t be here asking for advice. You don’t have to agree with me.

Very rude, not to say heartless, to call a parent looking for advice ‘transphobic’ at the drop of a hat.

I don’t know what your confidence is built on, cheesefortea1, but it doesn’t sound like you have much experience in nonjudgmental listening.

You’ve literally called them ‘she’ ten times in your opening post.

Yes, she said it was her daughter in the post. Hence, "she".

Their journey? They aren't going anywhere, they are simply growing up into an adult woman as young girls do.

Yes.

The daughter does not have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and the op is not a dr and so not qualified to make that diagnosis.

Some posters are treating this like she's come out as gay; it's absolutely nothing of the sort.

The most up to date advice is to unpick key concerns of body image and changes and discuss openly the impact of ideas of bodies and image, rather than simply fling an arm chair parental diagnosis of a medical condition at the child.

Sounds like my DD had a similar upbringing, at 13 also mentioned wanting to go by 'them'. She is aware of my GC beliefs and why I feel the way I do, particularly the impact of gender ideology in teens after seeing the phenomenon rolls it's way through my school in the last 5/6 years. I explained that I would not be using different pronouns but we did spend some time going through some of the things she was struggling with and finding alternative coping strategies.
Sensory overload from her hair = very short undercut but the top is long and yo her shoulders so when she feels overwelmed and that her hair is too hairy she can tie it up.

New bras that are more comfortable.

Periods = lots of period pants to avoid seeing the blood and a range of other products and an easier to reach basket with 1xdose paracetomal and ibuprofen, wheat bag etc to give her some independence to deal with it herself.

She hasn't mentioned they/them again and is much happier in herself. For her I think it was a need to assert control as she was struggling with the changes to her body but also with her ASD and feeling out of control with that.

One of DDs friends approached mum at the same time and she was unaware of gender ideology, both her and her daughter are on the spectrum, she went along with it as a good supportive mother and now has a teen who wants to make permanent physical changes.

The number of genuinely trans / gender dysphoria people is tiny. The number of girls (particularly asd girl) who are uncomfortable in their changing bodies and uncomfortable with the un wanted attention those bodies bring are huge, most girls get through the phase just fine with a bit of steering and empathy.

Your daughter is so lucky to have you - such sensible and practical suggestions!

One of the key aspects children with autism struggle with is unpredictability and change. I do remember teaching y6 boys with autism about puberty and the nurse really emphasising changes that are normal and permanent and those that aren't (eg can shave the hair off, use deodorant, penises do go down again) as these things can be particularly distressing.

It's hard enough being a neurotypical girl. I hid myself in baggy jumpers and dms till university iirc. Even as a grown woman there's definitely times a flattening sports bar is preferable. For sports and image.

I really wish period pants had been a thing when younger too.

I'm glad you found them helpful, but sounds like you're advertising a service you're financially invested in. As someone with artistic experience and a very good eye for colour, those services seem incredibly formulaic to me and colour is a very subjective thing anyway. I think OPs money would be best spent on decent therapy.

OP, I don't think it's neccessarily a good idea to talk about changing her body, but if she starts talking about hormone blockers and she sounds serious about it, it might be worth saying that when she's older and stopped growing (around 20-22 years old), then she could go on a contraceptive and she won't have to have periods anymore. You can skip those dummy pills they give out in packs. I wouldn't advise it with out telling her it will lower her testosterone levels though (all oral contraceptives do to a certain degree) , and that's not a good thing for general mood or libido. Takes a long time for the affects to wear off - more than a year.

How do you manage to find the time to police the entire internet's usage of pronouns?

Or do you specifically occupy yourself with this women's site specifically, instead of challenging the disgusting misogyny that is all over the internet.

Thanks everyone. She’s got short hair though is growing it as she didn’t like not being able to have different styles. She’s also has period pants and sports bras. She seems quite fixed on us accepting her, but this seems to be accepting her pronouns as she’s totally accepted at home. She is free to dress as she wishes, do her hair how she wants and we don’t push her to like things she’s not interested in. I’m hoping it’s a phase. It seems very linked to feeling different as she’s very aware she’s autistic (she goes to a school specifically for autistic children). I suppose I just want to ensure it doesn’t extend beyond pronouns to binders and hormones.

@cheesefortea1, if by transphobic you mean not wanting my child to have any medical intervention, believing in biological reality and wanting women’s single sex spaces to stay that way then sure. I’ve supported my daughter throughout her life and will continue to do so. She doesn’t have gender/body dysphoria and is aware she’s female and always will be. I just wanted some advice as I don’t want to ruin our relationship but I don’t particularly like her policing my speech and believing they/them is a thing. It’s sensitive and I just want to do best by my daughter. And yes I refer to her as she as she’s a female.

@cheesefortea1 just to add re "transphobia" (and OP, apologies for the slight derail):

To someone who has a belief in gender identity, any views which support the (legally protected) belief that there are two sexes might well sound transphobic on the face of it. However, does that mean it really is?

There was a brilliant (if somewhat long) essay last week from a former TRA where he asked if it was Christian-phobic for someone to say they didn't believe in God. Or if it was more a case that people have different beliefs.

In the OPs situation, and as a non-believer in gender identity, I would also call my daughter "she". In a different situation, where there's not an adolescent involved who is struggling with understanding the natural changes to her body, I may well choose to use the person's preferred pronouns as a nod to their belief. It doesn't mean I have the same belief or think that a transwoman is actually a woman or a non-binary person has no binary sex. If and when I chose to use preferred pronouns it's because I've made that choice. I call our local vicar Reverend [first name], rather than just [first name]. She knows I'm an atheist and that I don't actually revere God. She also doesn't compel me to use her preferred title and happily answers to her first name without it. The word transphobia/transphobic is banded about as a way of creating awkwardness and silence. You are more than welcome to call me transphobic for what I have said (and in fact blasphemous or Christian-phobic for saying I don't believe in God. However, I suspect the whole conversation would be a lot more productive if it was simply acknowledged that not everyone believes in gender identity and that that's OK.

Ps and just to come back to the actual thread, @Badgaston it sounds like you have a great approach to everything and that you're supporting your daughter really well.

My responses were blunt, I accept that. I’m sure the OP is a loving parent and supportive to their child in many ways.

But let me explain where I’m coming from:

I personally believe that deciding on a change in identity/pronouns is a huge thing that takes bravery. Not easy for anyone, especially at 14, and I would imagine that person is going through a lot coming to terms with it themselves. Working out who you are is tough when you’re going against society’s norms.

I also come from the perspective that it’s never ok to deliberately misgender someone. You wouldn’t like it if someone refused to use your pronouns.

I also believe that someone’s gender identity is not something you can influence. Denying it will help no one. If this child grows up to be non binary or transgender, opposing their wishes now can have a hugely damaging effect on your relationships.

So my message is to support them, not oppose them. But if your gender beliefs are so important to you, then stick with them. You might end up pushing your child away. That’s up to you.

I personally believe that deciding on a change in identity/pronouns is a huge thing that takes bravery.

Not necessarily. It's very fashionable and there can be a large element of social contagion about it. Some parents have talked about their dc coming home from school and saying that they feel left out and uncool because so many of their peers are identifying as trans or non-binary and seem to regard kids who aren't as boring.

I also come from the perspective that it’s never ok to deliberately misgender someone. You wouldn’t like it if someone refused to use your pronouns.

Collaboraring with or encouraging the social transitioning of children is not ok either. It is not a neutral act, and telling them they can change sex is a harmful lie.

I most likely would have no idea if someone 'used the wrong pronouns about me', because 'he' and 'she' are words you use about someone, not to them. However, if someone referred to me as 'he' in my earshot, I wouldn't be remotely offended, I'd just think they were in urgent need of an appointment with the optician.

I personally believe that deciding on a change in identity/pronouns is a huge thing that takes bravery.

Unfortunately this is one of the myths which causes so many problems. As the previous poster said about reverence, this lauding of bravery is part of the reverence expectation both the changer and the audience are expected to indulge in. Using the word bravery is designed to promote adulation, another religious idea.

Its all false. Nothing has actually changed. She remains female and god is still just a popular story.

You wouldn’t like it if someone refused to use your pronouns.

How can they? The idea that there is such thing as "your pronouns" is another myth. I don't have any pronouns. Its just language.

If this child grows up to be non binary or transgender, opposing their wishes now can have a hugely damaging effect on your relationships.

This is one of the most egregious myths.

This attitude is quite rightly seen as abusive manipulation of vulnerable young people and their parents and family.

This abusive phenomenon is indicative of extremely poor judgement and behaviour and you clearly have no idea how out of order you are for saying these terrible things. Its unforgivable really. You should learn to leave people alone.