If you're GC, what should trans people actually do?

[AmaListening]

I'd like to understand what someone with gender critical views thinks trans people should do.

Maybe let's make it specific with a couple of famous examples: Laverne Cox (trans woman), and Elliot Page (trans man).

Imagine you had it exactly your way. What should those human beings, who feel and identify the way they do, do about every aspect like: names, pronouns, surgery, clothing, relationships, social spaces, work, sports.

How should Laverne speak about her own identity? Should Elliot not have had top surgery?

I'd really like to understand what the world looks like for trans people if we carry GC views through to their end points.

Have we covered off the growing number of adolescents and young people who have said they are trans as a lifestyle choice? This is coming directly from them.

There are so many diverse groups under that trans umbrella. It is so concerning that they are treated as a homogeneous group with regards to treatment options.

I admire you for having the capacity to listen and change your mind, OP. I wish there were more people like you.

Yes, @AmaListening you can stick that prefix 'cis' in the bin, women are not a subset of their own sex class, they are the sex class.

The 'cis' prefix is all part of the dystopian world envisaged by TRAs - transwomen are women but women, actual adult human females are 'cis' or menstruators, cervix havers, birthers, etc. - do you see the glaring issue here OP?

And this:

And the hypocrisy of trans women - or their TRA megaphones - saying they’re too scared to use the men’s because of the men in there,

TW are fawned over and their fear of men accepted and broadcast, women say the same and it's all NAMALT, why are you fearful, why are you making women sound weak?

As if Laverne Cox, your example OP, would ever be intimidated or in any danger in the men's toilets.

There would be, but where would they see the arguments? MN is the only place I’ve seen them, having been banned from Twitter before GC views were tolerated on there. I had no stance on the trans issue before I found Mumsnet last winter. It baffled me, I couldn’t see how JKR’s infamous essay was “transphobic” but if so many people were saying it was, then it must be. So I never engaged with the subject, never liked or retweeted ANYTHING related, certainly never commented.

So it’s easy to see how #NoDebate took such hold, nobody wants to be accused of being a transphobe. And the adoption of T to the LGB meant to many people that it’s somehow homophobic to raise concerns about trans ideology, when at GIDS there was an in-staff “joke” that the service was trying to “trans the gay away”.

Yes. You’d be repelled by ANY body you could possibly have had. Because the problem is not your body 🤷🏽‍♀️

I also reject cis. It is a term used in chemistry and geography. It has fuck all to do with women or men.

Trans activists have called me and other homosexual female people (previously known as lesbians, that word's now been taken and 'adapted' so that it works to serve the interests of male people) 'homophobic' for asking to be allowed to be out and proud about being homosexual - exclusively same sex attracted, and not interested in joining lesbian groups or dating or having sex with any male person regardless of their identity choices. Nothing against them or their identity, but I'm homosexual.

How this is 'homophobic' never gets explained, and only works if you first make 'homosexual' mean something that serves gender ideology instead of meaning 'same sex attracted'. But the head of Stonewall says I'm a sexual racist, and TW have appeared on radio 4 explaining (as did Riley Dennis, well known TW), that homosexual women can 'learn to cope' with sex with male people, and need to 'overcome their sexual preference/genital prejudice'.

Which is homophobia on crack and conversion therapy.

And an art gallery in the states held an exhibition a few years back celebrating 'queer culture' which included proudly displaying blood stained t shirts and barbed wire wrapped baseball bats for the torture and murder of lesbian women who excluded male people from their bodies.

If they really feel they are happier that way they’re free to do what they want.

Just don’t impinge on female language and spaces. None of this pregnant person nonsense. Don’t call me a TERF if I object to the new woke terms. Or do, I don’t care. It’s practically a compliment to me now 🤷‍♀️

Also don’t police how lesbian and bi women are allowed to live their lives. Saying that refusing to sleep with a ‘woman’ with a penis doesn’t make a person a transphobe. It’s simply a person’s preference.

Note too in this whole 'learn to cope' line this belief that a female person should not be expecting to want or enjoy sex, be an equal participant, expect care or interest from the male who wishes to have sex with their body as to how they feel or whether they consent. They are being actively harassed out of expecting a right to consent.

This frames women entirely as walking sex provision units with a social duty to provide unpaid sex work to male people under specific circumstances. Who should be punished (by corrective rape and murder) for refusing to do so.

Try looking up terfisaslur.com and then 'incels'. The crossover in rhetoric, the dehumanisation of women and the belief in the right of male people to use female bodies as they need to without the stupid bitch having ideas that get in their way? Oh it's remarkably similar.

oh.

I just. My heart fell up in my mouth reading that.

I don't think it's true that nobody cares who else is in the men's toilets. For example, I would find it quite disturbing to meet LC in there! And it would have been considerably more disturbing to the adolescent me.

But that doesn't mean LC should be welcomed into the ladies' toilets, for all the reasons of safety and dignity. It's not OK to normalise the presence of men in women's spaces, particularly where women are more vulnerable because of undressing or private bodily functions. LC may or may not be any threat to women, but some men are, and some men take advantage of the relaxation of societal norms.

Thing is they will never be happy. If we gave up and let transwomen have the ladies loos and we had a sign saying (their beloved word for us) “cis” womens toilets then you can bet your arse they would tantrum to be able to use cis toilets.

As with religion, I'd say they can do what they want, as long as I am not made to be a part of it.

If religious people want to wear crosses, or hijabs, either socially or at work, I don't care.
If they build places of worship and gather there, fine.
If they take time out every Friday or Sunday to pray, not my concern.

But if, when I'm talking to them, they expect me to say, "God willing" after every statement - not fine.
If my work has enforced morning prayers - not fine.
If I also am expected to wear crosses or hijab - not fine.
If forms ask you "What is your religion? A? B? Prefer not to say?", not fine - "No religion" must be a possible answer. Better yet, let's ask instead, "Do you follow a religion?"
If religious people tell me I am wrong to be an atheist, and need to be educated - not fine.
If religious people attack me, either verbally or physically, for my non-belief - not fine.

Excellent analogies. I’ve tried to articulate it before in terms of religion and non-believers, but couldn’t get beyond extreme terms like infidel and heathen, which as an atheist I’m obviously not going to agree that I am either of those things.

Thing is they will never be happy. If we gave up and let transwomen have the ladies loos and we had a sign saying (their beloved word for us) “cis” womens toilets then you can bet your arse they would tantrum to be able to use cis toilets.

That's because a lot of it is about control and misogyny.

I believe we should live as we were born - and that acceptance of that is the way to happiness. We are all born with different characteristics be it small, tall, dark or blonde. Sex is the same we are born with it. We can modify what we wear, change the colour of our hair or diet, exercise but we are who we are. More effort should be put into helping people accept their gender/sex rather than the time and cost of changing it.

And narcissism.

Absolutely.

I'd also add that other women cannot vote to give up our rights. It won't wash for particular women like Sturgeon to think their biological sex entitles them to speak on all our behalves.

Couldn't have just stolen a car or something, could they. Had to be a rape.

The woman concerned thought she was going to die.

Fucking lauded in the House of Lords.

I remember when you were possibly going to have a meeting with them about it Datun

Couldn't have just stolen a car or something, could they. Had to be a rape.

Also my exact same thought.

It's all a part of TQ+ creep. The latest misappropriation is the statement that ' a trans woman is a woman assigned male at birth' total shit. Give them an inch and they take a mile and keep doing it. No such thing as a 'transwoman' , it's a trans identifying MAN. Conceived male, will die male. No access to women's spaces under any circumstances.

That's right. The Lord concerned wanted this violent male to inform the House of Lords how they could improve his prison experience.

One wonders what enhancements were suggested? Stop making me rape women in order that I can get surgery??

To answer a previous question to me: I think your friend is who I have in mind when I wrote "trans rights". The right of that person to live as themselves, without having to conform to anyone else's definition.

Thank you. It's been quite an uncomfortable process as I quite heavily identified as a progressive pro-trans ally; these last few days have been enlightening and I'm grateful for people repeating things I'm sure have been said ad nauseum on this board. I appreciate your patience that I'm only just hearing them.

The right of that person to live as themselves, without having to conform to anyone else's definition.

That's the cornerstone of gender critical feminism!

That people not be bound by gender stereotyping in order to conform to society's expectations of what to wear, how to present, what job to do, what roles to fulfil, etc.

Transgenderism undoes all that. Ironically. It says because I think and feel in this way, I must be a woman, because that's how women think.