Friend called TW 'man' and 'fella'

[Zombaes]

Just writing this to try and work through my feelings.

I'm very heavily GC. I always thought if I came face to face with this situation I wouldn't 'pretend' this person is a woman.

There was a TW at a drive through, friend driving. Middle aged man, caked with makeup. Very obviously a man.

Driver says 'You alright man' 'Cheers fella' 'nice one mate' sort of thing.

Very, very typical of him. He says those things to every man he talks to.

But it made me uncomfortable because I felt he might upset this person by not validating what they feel.

Which goes against everything I believe in principle.

No I do not believe that person was a woman. No I do not believe we should be forced to pretend he was and use female pronouns.
So why did it make me so uncomfortable that my friends didn't play along, when I always believed I wouldn't either?

Is it's just the years of woman guilt and being told to be 'nice?'

Everyone should stop playing along.

Why does he always respond in such a gender/sex specific way to people.

Yes, it's just a hangover from the 'be kind' years of indoctrination. Don't worry about it.

This is the thing.

Your natural wish to be kind to a person in front of you and not hurt their feelings is how the big picture of destroying women's rights as a sex class and overturning safeguarding in pursuit of men's absolute sexual freedoms is being leveraged.

It's very difficult.

I compromise by not using pronouns I perceive as a lie, while doing my best not to use the pronouns the person would prefer I didn't either. Mostly I use their name, and yes it sounds awkward, but I wasn't the one who chose to face others with choosing between obeisance and performative lying or being rude.

If however I'm dealing with someone stalking into a women's space and excluding women? I've been forced to the discourtesy and I will not be any politer to that person than they are being to the women around them.

Really, this is between your friend and the TW. Your feelings shouldn't come into it.

Are you certain of what everyone involved felt? Because it sounds like your friend was the opposite of whatever the transwomen are afraid of in the gents. He was rather friendly and polite.

Yes he was friendly and polite.

I think I would have avoided using any terms that indicate sex.

He made it very clear that he knew this person wasn't a woman, which I what I always thought I would do, but it made me uncomfortable.

Which surprised me alot as I have alot of angry feelings towards the whole situation.

Your natural wish to be kind to a person in front of you and not hurt their feelings is how the big picture of destroying women's rights as a sex class and overturning safeguarding in pursuit of men's absolute sexual freedoms is being leveraged.

This

This sums up my feelings very well, thankyou.

I'm not certain of anyone else's feelings, hence why Im just talking about how it made ME feel, in the context of my Gender Critical stance.

Can you expand on your "angry feelings"? I see a lot of similar sentiment on here and i genuinely dont understand it

I think you feel uncomfortable because there's a big difference between not buying into using female pronouns for a TW, and going out of your way to use very clearly male terms such as 'fella'. I'm guessing you yourself would have just avoided using gender-specific terms when using a drive-thru, which should be easily done.

That said it sounds like your friend is just a friendly person, and perhaps even used those friendly terms in a subconscious attempt to make it clear he has no issue with men wearing women's clothes and make up. However I suppose it could have had the opposite effect.

Another way to look at it: unless there's more to the story, you are the one making assumptions about how this person wanted to be addressed. For all you know, this was a man who felt like wearing makeup (and whatever else made you assume TW) but did not wish to be seen as female. I think that possibility is worth fighting for, mostly for the sake of all the women who'd like to be able to have short hair and no makeup without people making assumptions that they're transmen/NB.

I presume you wouldn't normally use sex-specific terms of address when dealing with people in passing? So, I wouldn't behave any differently with someone who presented as if they were trans at a drive through. I would if I they were in a female single sex environment though.

Do you think your friend used those sex-based terms specifically to be clear that he wasn't going along with the idea that this man was actually a woman? Or was he just reacting to someone he recognised as male the way he would usually?

This. It's weird. Which words would he use to greet a woman?
It's really not necessary to refer to gender at all during short conversations like this.

I have come to the conclusion that the word to use is "guy/guys" because I am constantly told - despite my protestations to the contrary - that "guy" is a gender neutral term.

@Zombaes what makes you think the middle aged man in makeup wanted your friend to pretend he was a woman?

If you meet a woman with short hair and trousers do you assume she wants you to pretend she's a man.

If your friend normally speaks to men in that way and wasn't being mean I can't see a problem.

While I also do not believe for a moment that person was a man I don’t see the need to constantly refer to their sex, it was pretty rude.
I will not ever #bekind to the extent of supporting men in female only spaces but I would also not keep using very sex specific terms to anyone like this driver did.
I wouldn’t have used female terms either though

In Lancashire it's pretty common amongst working class men. It's a cultural thing.

That's exactly where we are 😂

I dunno the false eyelashes, bright pink lipstick, the hair in space buns and the false nails and name tag with a woman's name all just sort of screamed 'I'm trying to be a woman'

Might not be particularly gendered*, could be regional and OP was just more sensitive to it in this particular situation than she ordinarily would be?

In my area everyone under the age of about 50 is wont to randomly call each other ‘mate’ (including my female friends to each other) it indicates friendliness, much like ‘love’ but in a manner that negates the fear of one’s friendliness being mistaken for flirting.
You even have mate in your username!

*if it is being used in a specifically gendered then it’s likely less about being directly sexist and more about how men interact with each other in a manner that placates male anger - although perhaps not if the ‘mate/fella/man’ is the sort who demands others take play along with their performed fiction 🙀

Personally, I think this sort of language is just habitual/reflexive and based on local patterns. It’s no more sexist than an older lady calling a young chap ‘cock’ and a younger woman ‘love’ (although the unisex ‘duck’ is probably safest in 2023).

I’d hate for us to lose regional variation in dialects because everyone is scared of a telling off from a Gender Studies student (we just seem to end up with imported Americanisms instead, and I’m a conscientious objector to American Cultural Imperialism).

OP, it’s probably your ‘Inner Beryl’ making you feel like that (back with the link when I’ve searched it up!)

Probably so but, personally, I would not assume someone wanted me to pretend something silly unless they asked me to. All those things are nothing to do with being a woman, per se.

In principle, I think it's great if men want to wear makeup. The problem is the loons who want to force others to lie about their sex.

Good for that man! Stop playing along with shite. That weakness has led us to where we are now, with people thinking they are a gendered soul that has floated about and entered the "wrong body", and having horrific body mutilations to make the body a pathetic imitation of the other biological sex. It's weakness that has caused all this crap. People need to stop playing along and being so fucking weak.