Friend called TW 'man' and 'fella'

[Zombaes]

Just writing this to try and work through my feelings.

I'm very heavily GC. I always thought if I came face to face with this situation I wouldn't 'pretend' this person is a woman.

There was a TW at a drive through, friend driving. Middle aged man, caked with makeup. Very obviously a man.

Driver says 'You alright man' 'Cheers fella' 'nice one mate' sort of thing.

Very, very typical of him. He says those things to every man he talks to.

But it made me uncomfortable because I felt he might upset this person by not validating what they feel.

Which goes against everything I believe in principle.

No I do not believe that person was a woman. No I do not believe we should be forced to pretend he was and use female pronouns.
So why did it make me so uncomfortable that my friends didn't play along, when I always believed I wouldn't either?

Is it's just the years of woman guilt and being told to be 'nice?'

*I have to come back to this.

It makes no sense to me.

They want us to see them as women, that's why they do it.
Apparently misgendering is literal violence.

So when we see a man dressed as a woman they tell us to be kind and treat him as one.

But them people like you say 'don't make assumotions' he might be a man (duh) and just like women's clothes.

So what we don't use any sex based language or pronouns around anyone now? Incase we assume wrong??

But I thought pronouns and respecting them is soooo important?

It's like people have tied themselves up in knots so much that you don't even know what you're saying or want anymore?*

Quite. It's complete nonsense. So just say what you see. That's what third person pronouns are for, anyway. They're for the speaker's use to refer to what they perceive, their understanding of the world, not for the person they are referring to to dictate.

Is it's just the years of woman guilt and being told to be 'nice?'

Yup.

I do agree with him. It was a man. He used to friendly terms he uses with all males. He was polite.

I'm just musing that I inwardly grimaced when he said 'fella'

I found it interesting that my emotional reaction was at odds with what my values are and what my brain knows is right.

I just found it interesting.

I think anger in this situation might be related to both fear and feelings of helplessness.

We have been programmed to fear these men kicking off, I think. We’ve all seen the “It’s Ma’am” video. We’ve heard about women being dismissed from jobs. We’ve seen companies falling over themselves to apologize to offended men who were not happy with being treated as the men they are.

I remember the first time I realized how harmful that fear reaction is and how much we all walk on eggshells when a geordie lad on a dating app turned down a young man in women’s clothing with a humorous take on how he’d been keen until he clocked his potential date was the wrong sex. He was then attacked by the usual activists on Twitter and obviously found it hilarious.

It was a lesson to me on how much our reactions are being controlled. Men are not being controlled in the same way, so I imagine you were anticipating something bad happening, which never appeared.

It’s very difficult to unpack it all. On the Trinny thread, someone else commented on the fact that, a few years back, they would have thought the show was sweet, but now could no longer see it that way.

I wish I could channel that Geordie lad sometimes. What transactivism really requires is to be laughed at. But women laughing is less acceptable than men doing so and also women have a lot more to lose. Probably your anger stems from there being so much emotion now on this topic. It can’t easily be switched off. And for me, there’s no worse experience than anything that smacks of coercive control and many of us are effectively being controlled here.

If you'd spent any time around Camden over the years you'd have seen an awful lot of men in skirts and make-up with no intention of being seen as women!

You're right, of course, that it's been made into a minefield but to me it's no more controversial to assume that a man in a skirt and make-up wants to be seen as a man than to assume they want to be seen as a woman.

Assuming the latter just reinforces sexist stereotypes. This was once the case for women who started wearing trousers who were assumed to be "trying to be men" and i don't think it's any more progressive the other way around!

I wonder if you’re just a kind person and recognised you were dealing with an individual with a mental health issue. A lot of anger about the broader TRA community is hard to direct at the clearly-struggling individual in front of you.

MN sometimes makes you feel you are either with women by being unfailingly anti-TW, or you’re anti-women. There is a spectrum. You can recognise an individual before you and not want to humiliate them publicly, but also passionately fight against TRA bullshit to prevent the erasure of women and our spaces.

I wish I could channel that Geordie lad sometimes.

He did a pretend video apology too, I seem to remember, also taking the piss

What transactivism really requires is to be laughed at.

I completely agree.

Wrong naming conventions. Your clever, clever brain over-rides emotion and values to keep you safe. It's subconscious. It is a surprise when that happens though!

Nrtff. My Dad used to call blokes 'cock'. Now, that I would have paid to see. He knew Foofoo Lamarr from when he, my Dad, used to bounce.

Because it is natural/instinctive to do so.

Can you analyse that response any further, and uncover where it was coming from?

Where I live women are 'love'; 'girl' or 'queen'. Men are 'mate' or 'lad' or 'boss'.

I'd say it's from the forced indoctrination that it's a females responsibility to always placate a man, keep him calm, do not push his buttons or upset him because that could result in a dangerous situation for me. Also the 'be kind' brigade have also pushed the narrative so much that these men just want to 'be happy' and aren't harming anyone that I feel almost guilty acknowledging the biological truth about this man.
I also recognise that this person, statistically most likely has mental health issues.

I think this is really interesting. Moot point, but it makes me wonder how the TW would have reacted if a woman used the same language?

It makes no sense to me.

They want us to see them as women, that's why they do it.
Apparently misgendering is literal violence. [A]

So when we see a man dressed as a woman they tell us to be kind and treat him as one. [A]

But them people like you say 'don't make assumotions' he might be a man (duh) and just like women's clothes. [B]

So what we don't use any sex based language or pronouns around anyone now? Incase we assume wrong?? [You]

But I thought pronouns and respecting them is soooo important? [A]

It's like people have tied themselves up in knots so much that you don't even know what you're saying or want anymore? [You]

The problem you have here is you are mixing up the oposing opinions of 2 separate groups [I've added labels for clarirty] and trying to make them agree with each other.

Group A - thinks TWAW.

Group B - thinks TWAnotW.

Of course what 1 says is inconsistent with what the other says. That's not group A or group B tying themselves in knots. The knots are entirely your own.

Your friend sounds delightful!

"I dunno the false eyelashes, bright pink lipstick, the hair in space buns and the false nails and name tag with a woman's name all just sort of screamed 'I'm trying to be a woman'"

I am completely missing the point of the thread, but most, if not all, fast food outlets - certainly the ones big enough to have drive-throughs - don't allow employees to wear false nails while working.

I think your friend's reaction was fine - polite, friendly, non-judgemental. These two men had never met before and are perhaps unlikely to meet again. Your friend made a judgement call about gender/sex and went with language that felt right to him.

If they had been introduced at a party, it would be different: 'This is Judy. She's from Sheffield.' And your friend went on to fella/mate/man. That would feel rude.

People who call others fella, mate, bruv, ducks, lover or the suchlike are not going to stop because a man is wearing clothes often associated with women. And why should they? It's no one's job to try and guess how randoms want to be addressed.

It's not weird at all unless you have had literally no exposure to working class culture. To answer your question, he would likely have addressed a woman as "love", "pet", "duck", "hinny" or "darling" depending on what part of the country he was from (although "love" and "duck" are also used by men to address other men).

Unfortunately, real women get told "no" but men dressing as women seem to be treated differently and allowed to get away with it.

I wonder why.

Good on your friend, OP. More men need to be straight to the point like him. Say it as they see it and forget the "be kind" indulgences.

Why would it feel rude not to join in with someone's belief system?

Would you feel rude if you followed a practicing Catholic into their church without joining in with their genuflectiions?

As an atheist, I do watch my language around people who are religious. If I know you are religious, I would make an effort not to say 'oh my god' or 'Jesus H Fucking Christ'. Because I may not share their belief in the supernatural, but I don't feel the need to piss on their chips, either.

Would I let the man-dressed-as-a-woman use the female loo without comment? No.

Would I deliberately address him as 'fella' if I knew he was using a female name? No.

I might slip up, of course. And that's not an act of hate. It's my firm grasp on reality asserting itself.

But if he was obviously a man, you should address him As a man. Like pp said, short hair and trousers don't make you a man any more than lipstick and lashes make you a woman. You're overthinking it.

We make exceptions for people's contrary-to-fact beliefs all the time.

If the man-in-a-dress introduced himself as Judy, would you immediately demand his birth name? If you're willing to roll with his name being stereotypically female, you're likely to avoid 'man, fella' if you can remember to do so.

It doesn't mean you think he's a woman.

@Zombaes

I think you may have felt unease because the words coming out of your friends mouth and the image the person in front of thou was portraying in front of you did not match in your head and that triggered the feeling that something was wrong which you felt as unease/ discomfort.

I like places where they call everyone 'duck'. It's totally unisex.

But other than that I don't think I use things like love or mate or fella when I'm talking.

I use mate sometimes but usually in an argument!

In a drive through the only things I'm likely to say is 'what did you say?' Can you repeat that' 'erm....barbecue sauce' 'no I don't want to supersize it' and 'thanks' so it matters not a jot what sex or gender the person is at the counter. Maybe that also made it a much more awkward feeling?