AIBU in thinking the special talk guidelines are out of date?

[TinselAngel]

Post Forstater and in the current climate where the assault on women's rights is being discussed everywhere, AIBU to say the special FWR guidelines are no longer necessary?

MN no longer needs special rules to appease the activists who monitor the site, in order to maintain its ability to host the debate, when it is no longer the only site where the topic can be discussed.

I posted the something on the Trans Widows Escape Committee thread a couple of days ago, and it was deleted, it was my first ever deletion on that thread in 6 years. As an experiment I posted the same thing on Twitter and nobody batted an eyelid there.

Is it time we women of FWR, and in particular trans widows, were allowed to speak freely?

”I think the reason for that feeling I often get is that is that you seem keen to tie people up in restrictions of one sort or other; you want to monitor how things are expressed.”

And then, “Personally have no issue with straight talk and plain language but find swearing and unnecessary aggression to be counterproductive.”

Seems something of a disconnect here.

I knew the word "castration" wasn't allowed here and it was very painful not to be able to use it on MumsNet after my child to me what he was planning to do to himself. When my (adult) son told me he was trans and about to start cross-sex hormones that word was right there at the front of my mind in screaming capitals and it's still there at the back of my mind, all the time, even while I'm doing whatever I think I need to do to support my child.

And if I can't say it then how can other poeople understand what I was and I am still going through? Or what my child is going to put himself through? It's like a great game of let's pretend, if we don't say the very bad word maybe it wont be that bad? Some people clearly don't want to hear "castration" and they don't want to let other people hear it. The way so many women still can't bear to use the word "rape" about what was done to them. But that doesn't make it the wrong word.

I don't know if MumsNet would be shut down for allowing the word. I wouldn't want that, I appreciate the way MumsNet has given us space to say so many of the things we need to say. But I would like that word back.

Ps I think it's time for me to step away from the whole board again now, with the exception of the thread on the NHS consultation on puberty blockers. I'm working my way through the NHS documents and the comments on that thread are very helpful.

I took a month off recently and came back when I needed some up to date thoughts to help support my daughter. The collective minds of some incredible contributiors on this board are amazing.

I have to tread very cautiously with my daughter or she will shut down and disengage. She's 14 and vulnerable to being told No Contact if I address it too head-on. That's possibly why I approach things the way I do here too - I value engage of all voices. I'd rather people felt it was an environment that they could engage in than they felt it was unaccessible. I make no apologies for that view.

*inaccessible

Yes, I now post using another name.....😀

Ironically, I think we two have some similarity - in that I also see 'being reasonable' as a constructive approach, certainly if furthering goals is the aim - and by that, yes, I also mean 'tone'. However, where I think we have a bit of 'rub' is that to my mind you get a little bit too hung up on having not only to accept that others have different views and persepctives, but that you think we must somehow co-exist by holding both views with equal accord and due respect.

I personally, don't think that is possible on this issue - though I do think that one can be firm and direct, using plain language ( you somehow seem to draw it out of me 😮 ), and still not be wilfully offensive at the same time.

Sorry for what you're going through @BonfireLady I also know about treading carefully with our children.

I think it is always a shame whe someone on your own team feels they have to leave because things get personally unpleasant. I'm not sure if you are speaking about the same person, though.

I'm so fucking sorry.

BonfireLady I'm sorry to hear you're going through that with your daughter. It must be really, really hard.

I never name change me, except mid-thread when distracted. 😁

Yes, I get it that this board is used by mostly women. However, people also suggest Andrew Neil should come here and get himself up to speed. Why would he do that if the opening post in a thread (and then another a few posts down) talks about starting to hate men?

I don't think you need to worry about Andrew Neil being upset if he read that thread, he is a seasoned journalist with a very thick skin and the good sense to realise when reading that thread why women would say they are starting to
hate men.

I certainly wouldn't in his shoes.

You are not him and he has faced far worse in his career than reading a thread where women are angry.

You spend an awful lot of time trying to salve men's consciences and avoid hurting their feelings @BonfireLady why is that necessary?

For the record I found your post about that thread with the poor men vibe unbelievably patronising and rather smug.

I like your posts @BonfireLady and usually enjoy reading them. All the best to you and yours. If you do step back i hope you come back.

I think we all have our own lines and there's nothing wrong with holding them. Obviously different to imposing them on someone else or judging someone else for having different boundaries. I avoid some threads because I have nothing useful to add. Some because I know they will be or are a tad tetchy.

My major issues with MN are the unevenness of the moderation, which is probably unavoidable, and the censoring of words like cult, castration, etc. Any frustrations I have with the site are massively outweighed though by being able to have these discussions at all. And I have noticed some loosening, I think.

Appreciated @ArabeIIaScott

I'd rather people felt it was an environment that they could engage in than they felt it was inaccessible. I make no apologies for that view.

This is like unisex, mass-entry toilets. You may use the words accessible or inclusive on the door, or the title of your policy, but sometimes special efforts to be accessible to some people simply mean that it is inaccessible to the people you don't value.

In our toilets example, including male people of any type excludes some women.

A posting forum where you're obliged to use particular styles of euphemism pushes out the posters who cannot play that game. It also pushes out the posters who experience the demand as gaslighting them about the abuse they've suffered.

Inclusive health leaflets that call women "vulva havers" exclude women with low literacy. It goes on. You can't please all the people all the time.

You can only pretend you include all the people all the time. Maybe you can also internally congratulate yourself on something that is, in fact, a lie, too.

I'll be really disappointed if gifs and swears are banned, too. Sorry. I can't fucking help it.

YANBU

I got deleted for using amputation too.

Me fucking too!

At least I assume that’s what it was. Can’t think of anything else it could have been.

There are times in this shit show that only swearing will do.

I'd rather people felt it was an environment that they could engage in than they felt it was unaccessible

But it isn't unaccessible, you just don't like how some of us 'speak' on the issue.

Many of us have been at this for years. We've heard every single 'argument' and reason why gender identity ideology is real and the most important thing and how women should shut the fuck up and accept men having their every whim pandered to at the expense of our entire sex class.

We have been devastated at the utter bollocks being 'taught' to children and the emotional and physical damage it has caused to individuals and families.

We have seen the predicted consequences and victims of 'self ID'
Allowing men in women's spaces etc.

I swear in frustration not stupidity or because I cant 'win an argument'.

The TRA'S come here, plop on threads, accuse us of all kinds, or they twist themselves in knots and flit when they can't cope with their own cognitive dissonance.
They go on the defensive because they cannot give an answer because how can you make sense of something so nonsensical?

Our bluntness comes after these years of playing nice.
We have been there, tried that and it didn't work.

We are talking about the same person and she was on no-one's side but her own. I went to immense cognitive and emotional effort for her that was not returned. And then she had the gall to go on and on about how upset she was, as if she was the only person who had emotions.

I did not want to speak at the time to explain how much her behaviour had hurt me, but it was a lot.

I hope the selfish, self-absorbed person never comes back.

It was no loss

@OneSmallNameChangeForAWoman and @BonfireLady 💐💐and strength.

I’ve just popped back to apologise for my inability to string a sentence together earlier. I took my sleep deprived menopausal self back to bed and have hopefully woken with a few more working brain cells.

And then she had the gall to go on and on about how upset she was, as if she was the only person who had emotions.

It's always the same isn't it, only certain peoples emotions and feelings count and are to be considered.

As for chasing people away who have a different style/standard of posting that's bullshit there are many different styles of posting on threads here. Posters who don't swear/don't like swearing fine but don't tell others not to if that is their style. Post in the way that suits you and cut out the lecturing of other posters who post in a different style.

And you cannot please all the people all the time.

If poster A and B say they won't post because posters C and D won't abide by A and B's style guide, then posters C and D probably feel equally strongly about the issue.

You can't have an environment where all four are happy. Either the first set find posts too abrasive and they don't want to spend their leisure time in the forum, or the second set feel they're having to tread on eggshells when they post. Naturally they don't want to spend their leisure time on the forum either!

When forum guidelines are drawn up, forum mods are preemptively picking whether they want to keep the first two or the second two, and it has to be acknowledged that is what happens. Let's not have polite fictions that you can create a social environment that everyone finds equally appealing.