AIBU in thinking the special talk guidelines are out of date?

[TinselAngel]

Post Forstater and in the current climate where the assault on women's rights is being discussed everywhere, AIBU to say the special FWR guidelines are no longer necessary?

MN no longer needs special rules to appease the activists who monitor the site, in order to maintain its ability to host the debate, when it is no longer the only site where the topic can be discussed.

I posted the something on the Trans Widows Escape Committee thread a couple of days ago, and it was deleted, it was my first ever deletion on that thread in 6 years. As an experiment I posted the same thing on Twitter and nobody batted an eyelid there.

Is it time we women of FWR, and in particular trans widows, were allowed to speak freely?

That is horrific Neighbourhood.

The beauty of being an adult is being able to choose what to read and what not to read. And if someone wishes to prejudge a thread based on whether or not they agree with the sentiment of the first poster on the thread other than the OP, then that is their decision.

Personally, I would prefer it if someone avoids a thread rather than go onto the thread and censure and censor women’s speech if they cannot contribute anything else. I applaud that decision.

YY, Helle.

A very shocking article and it's important to get it out there and talked about so that the harms done to women in history are out in the sunlight. However, I'm not commenting on the thread because the opening post, and another within the first few posts, talks about really starting to hate men. Personally I find that disrespectful and distracting from the actual issue. Today's men are not responsible for the actions of previous men..It's important that today's men learn from the past but I'm not sure how many will want to listen to the information if it's an anti-men environment right from the word go. Not to mention giving some great screenshot opportunities for those that want to represent this board as man-hating as well as trans-hating. But I won't go on the thread and "police" the language.

It is getting beyond tiresome to have NAMALT and NATWALT on a Feminist Board on a site where the contributors and readers are, I would hazard a guess, 99% women.

Do you think people commenting on that thread are trying to teach or inform men, on a thread in FWR on a predominantly female site @BonfireLady ? Or do you think they are just commenting and outraged? Frankly if anyone isn't outraged by that, male or female, then they are beyond redemption.

As for taking screenshots, so what?

It is not necessary to respect someone's viewpoint ( as in the content of it or the belief system on which it is based). What is necessary is that someone accepts that people have different view points. If you have a fundamental issue with the actual content of the view point of someone, though, than there is nothing to be gained from censuring your own response to that, nor in failing to speak about it in clear, plain language.

Conflicts between essential viewpoints is why we are here - and in this case - if we do not stand up for the truth as we perceive it - we cede ground in the ongoing battle to stop the erasure of women, and the belittling of women's integrity.

I often struggle with your posts - and am often led ( rightly or wrongly) to feel suspicious. I think you've referred to some of my comments about your posting style earlier on in this thread. I think the reason for that feeling I often get is that is that you seem keen to tie people up in restrictions of one sort or other; you want to monitor how things are expressed. Perhaps that is because you feel you are in a double bind yourself?

I understand you are trying to support an autistic daughter - and are struggling with how best to cope with her identifying as trans.

My definite feeling is that it depends on who is moderating that day; and yes, it is totally unfair and totally unjustifiable. I stopped posting for quite some time, too, on account of that and made do with reading - which was still incredibly worthwhile. The board is so educative and informative - and the level of discussion is often very high.

I have refrained from posting recently after a stern talking-to. I seem to be skating on thin ice, yet other people post exactly what I was deleted for.
It is this inconsistency which bothers me.

We're now starting to see the language being shifted from suggesting that TWAW to TW are female. I think that comes in response to the successful holding of the line when it comes to the difference between 'gender' and 'sex'. That nobody can really change sex.

That and the sudden omnipresence of 'trans folk'.

... kindness is danegeld

@Froodwithatowel, brilliant.

I think you are referring to me in that post. I think I, and another - who has since left the board altogether as a result of what followed ( a shame) - had an issue with the swearing and name calling. We were told we were 'tone policing' and it got very unpleasant.

Both of us left the thread but what I could see was that it then continued with lots of swearing written in huge bold black letters and lots of very annoying ( certainly for me) memes ( or whatever they are called - little highly repetitive videos of facial expressions and such) for page after page after page.

Personally have no issue with straight talk and plain language but find swearing and unnecessary aggression to be counterproductive. I appreciate some people might not find lots of swearing and name calling to be unecessary and counter-productive acts of aggression. I do.

You also completely missed the point I was making, as well.

lots of very annoying ( certainly for me) memes ( or whatever they are called - little highly repetitive videos of facial expressions and such)

Emojis.

“how things are expressed”

There really seems to be a strong belief for some people that women talking will only be heard if they speak nicely and act reasonably (as by that person’s own standard of niceness and reasonableness).

Today's men are not responsible for the actions of previous men..It's important that today's men learn from the past but I'm not sure how many will want to listen to the information if it's an anti-men environment right from the word go

Being pro woman is not "anti men"
It is being framed this way, by men, because there are men who do not want the status quo disrupted by women actually being treated equally.
They see it as discrimination against their sex for us simply wanting to be treated with some basic fucking respect.

Pointing out the shit men do to women makes men look bad.
Can't have that now can we.
We must shut up about it rather than them actually face up to it, because if they did it would mean they'd have to change and take responsibility for their own behaviours and why would they, when it takes away their advantages and would make them unable to blame women for causing the problems as they do now?

Globally, men are still seen as the default humans and women as support humans, carers, incubators, accessories.
This has worked nicely for the men. Most don't want it to change. Even the 'nice' ones.
How exactly are 'today's men' any different to yesterday's? Women around the world are still slaves, sold like cattle or trafficked for sex, kept uneducated, etc.

Then after millennia of this shit, some men then demand we pretend they can be 'women' too and that our very sex, the thing they've used to control us, no longer exists and we must not talk about women and biological reality because it destroys their fantasy.

Fuck that.

The fact some women prioritize the feelings of men who claim womanhood over those of women shows that they KNOW who the men are because they still bloody default to them, and WE know who the men are because if they WERE women, this sexist, homophobic, gaslighting ideology would never have got off the starting block.

I think it can come as a shock to some on here when women are 'blunt' and honest, or refuse to use ridiculous, nonsensical gender language and 'be kind' but that again boils down to stereotypical behaviours that women are still expected to follow. Even by other women.

No, I definitely think they were 'memes' ( little videos of animals or people pulling faces)

If a poster doesn’t like swearing that is not on women to stop. If a poster cannot read past swearing that is purely that poster’s choice.

The official term is GIF.

Delurking to respond to this one.

Also, @ArabeIIaScott I caught your post just as I sent my previous one. Your point about having to face our egos being challenged was a great one. Not at all easy but definitely important for active debate.

You went from being someone I struggled immensely with, to someone I now hold in one of the highest regards on this board. I'm assuming I've got the name change correct and you're the same person I originally struggled with.

I don't think I'm keeping myself in a double bind but I'll certainly reflect on that. I also don't believe I try and police others' language but I'm in the minority there. What I believe I'm doing is advocating for the debate to be accessible to as many varied voices as possible. Rather ironically, I think some people who say I'm policing language actually police access to the debate because it's rendered inaccessible. Advocating for respectable debate seems like a reasonable ask IMO.

And to add another thought... Yes, I get it that this board is used by mostly women. However, people also suggest Andrew Neil should come here and get himself up to speed. Why would he do that if the opening post in a thread (and then another a few posts down) talks about starting to hate men?

I certainly wouldn't in his shoes. The only reason I came back to this thread was a combination of @ArabeIIaScott's perfectly timed post and @RebelliousCow 's comment here. I really don't mind that you're still holding me to account on sounding suspicious either. I have gained so much value from our various conversations. The fact that you're cracking the whip while also lifting women up works fine for me. It's when there is only whip-cracking and a hostile/inaccessible atmosphere that I object. I suspect that many a poster has been deterred from saying what they would like to say when threads get filled with too much bluntness. I've seen quite a few people exiting quite a few threads in this way. Surely it's better to find a way to engage different voices. Otherwise it's group think and no debate by a different route.

Thank you. Things are pretty tough again ATM but we're getting there.

There really seems to be a strong belief for some people that women talking will only be heard if they speak nicely and act reasonably (as by that person’s own standard of niceness and reasonableness)

Funny too how this only seems to apply to the female sex though and NOT to men with a 'woman identity'.

🤔🤔🤔🤔

Wow.
Thanks for the feedback.

If this board had swearing regularly on it, I don’t think I’d have bothered reading the feminist rational statements . I find swearing off putting as it is often resorted to when the argument has been lost or to deter opposing views. And I must say that reading the posts by transactivists has been most illuminating.

Men are definitely not on the side of women, Look at what happened in Afghanistan. Women were banned from universities, the men made a sad face, said it was bad but carried on getting an education.
Where was the solidarity with women, where were the boycotts of lessons until women were allowed back, where were the student protests from the men? No where . And it will be the same here when we’re all back in our boxes.

RebelliousCow

and another - who has since left the board altogether as a result of what followed ( a shame)

Would this be the illiterate, intellectually lazy woman who alternated misreading our posts with references to her own phd?

"A shame" is not the wording I would have used. I think I prefer the words "good riddance".

There really seems to be a strong belief for some people that women talking will only be heard if they speak nicely and act reasonably (as by that person’s own standard of niceness and reasonableness).

Ask me nicely, they will still say 'No' or ignore women's wants as per that poster who declared they would still use the female only facilities. No, I am not going to ask nicely, I am going to do what males and TRAs do I am going to demand and be blunt about it.

As for if people see your posts they will say you are anti-trans/anti-men, you might upset people I don't care, I don't give a flying fuck if someone on Twitter who I have never met, never will meet, never heard of labels me anti-trans or anti-men. The men and trans people I know know that I am not, I know I am not, what some no mark on Twitter thinks of me is irrelevant, it doesn't concern me in the slightest, their opinion of me is of no consequence to me.