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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Looks like Italy have banned surrogacy

140 replies

ColinRobinsonsFart · 27/07/2023 00:25

twitter.com/surrogconcern/status/1684294419300732931?s=46&t=_Rfk59cXnQlTYarlcFuu0w

OP posts:
Jomijo · 28/07/2023 18:33

Rudderneck · 28/07/2023 17:54

This is where the idea that "indirect discrimination" is always problematic gets us, frankly. To a place where something like surrogacy is being argued as acceptable not on its own merits, but because those who use it are statistically more likely to be gay men.

But if you accept the idea that if some regulation or boundary affects a special population more than others, it is just unacceptable, that's where you end up.

Statistically, it's (unsurprisingly) predominantly heterosexual couples using surrogacy (70-80%, Jadva et al 2019).

But obviously there should not be any difference with regards to the sexual orientation of who uses surrogates when discussing surrogacy (unfortunately, in the case of Italy which started the discussion on this thread, the government DOES target primarily homosexuell parents).

TommyNever · 28/07/2023 19:11

TangledRoots · 28/07/2023 10:23

I think we need an urgent re-think about donor gametes, surrogacy, experiments on human embryos, interfering with DNA and the structure of gametes before conception. It has all gone way too far.

People are being created in unnatural ways- their biological ancestors could be all around the globe, they may have been created in countries with lax rules so they never get to know their biological parents, they could have deep psychological wounds from being separated from their mother and they need to live with that for their whole lives, they could have congenital defects from the IVF, just so that some adults get to have an experience similar to being natural parents.

This is without bringing the commercial trade in babies and potential babies (gametes), or the exploitation of poorer women into the equation.

I am heartened that Italy is doing something about it.

Of course doing something about it is going to affect people who can’t or won’t conceive naturally the most, and since the vast majority of people can and do conceive naturally, of those affected, it is mainly going to be those who won’t conceive naturally - because of either their lack of attraction to, or impatience with the opposite sex (although I think opposite sex attracted women who opt for donor conception are extremely rare).

I don't agree with your conception of "unnatural" here, which seems mystical and irrational. I assume you'd apply that term to IUI, a harmless and straightforward procedure. Something as simple as insemination shouldn't have to be dependent on heterosexual intercourse for those who find that distasteful, painful or demeaning. (And that's not just homosexual people - asexual and even some heterosexual people don't want to have to engage in such behaviour).

Nonetheless I agree with the ban on surrogacy, and agree with those who support this move by the Italian government while condemning many of their other policies. Just as I'm happy to support the moves by Republican US states to ban hormone hormone treatments and surgery for gender-confused minors, while disagreeing with other Republican stances.

Rudderneck · 28/07/2023 19:38

Thinking about this idea of far right governments, or those which have some policies that are very offensive to many, in the context of this issue, I have come to think that the divide may be something to do with a differernce in left wing thinking in general.

At this point in time, though perhaps not always, the left seems wedded to some ways of thinking that just ignore the real world. They focus on ideology and are simply not pragmatic. If reality doesn't fit, they ignore it.

Overall, the political right seems more pragmatic, and this is largely true even of some of the more extreme right wing parties. They are talkingabout things people are concerned with.

Regardless of other things, starting from reality is almost always going to result in better policy making than ignoring reality. Sometimes maybe even if the solution they are proposing doesn't appeal in many ways, it will still be more effective at addressing the issues affecting people. When the other party just has their finger in their ears saying, la la la, the chances are what they will come up with is not fit for purpose.

Immigration is probably the most obvious example of this. It's clearly a problem, people are clearly concerned about it. But progressives seem unwilling to talk about the elements that worry people, or even acknowledge them, and so their policies don't seem convincing.

TrainedByCats · 28/07/2023 20:20

gogomoto · 28/07/2023 09:40

There's more than one kind of surrogacy, a sister carrying for a sibling just is different to commercial surrogacy, I think private non monetary arrangements shouldn't be outlawed

I’m almost more concerned about familial surrogacy as the family pressure on the woman with the ability to carry the child to help out a sibling would be huge. I’ve seen it when a sibling needed a transplant but at least in that circumstance the prospective donor has the option to have the surgical team say they aren't compatible after testing even if they are.

Surrogacy doesn’t have that safeguard.

If you’ve never been in a family where some level of emotional blackmail/coercive control is utilised you just can’t understand how corrosive and difficult to resist that can be.

And there would be a mass of emotions and issues going forward for the child and the biological mother. How would the mother feel if she didnt agree with her siblings and their partners methods of discipline. How does the child form a healthy relationship with their aunt mother? How do they feel towards their sibling cousins? What happens if the mother suffers serious health issues as a result of the pregnancy? What happens to the mother child relationship if the sibling and their partner split up? What rights does the mother have if their relationship with their sibling breaks down?

TangledRoots · 28/07/2023 20:25

Jomijo · 28/07/2023 18:33

Statistically, it's (unsurprisingly) predominantly heterosexual couples using surrogacy (70-80%, Jadva et al 2019).

But obviously there should not be any difference with regards to the sexual orientation of who uses surrogates when discussing surrogacy (unfortunately, in the case of Italy which started the discussion on this thread, the government DOES target primarily homosexuell parents).

Things are progressing at breakneck speed, so 2019 probably gives us very old statistic compared to how things stand now.

TangledRoots · 28/07/2023 20:33

TommyNever · 28/07/2023 19:11

I don't agree with your conception of "unnatural" here, which seems mystical and irrational. I assume you'd apply that term to IUI, a harmless and straightforward procedure. Something as simple as insemination shouldn't have to be dependent on heterosexual intercourse for those who find that distasteful, painful or demeaning. (And that's not just homosexual people - asexual and even some heterosexual people don't want to have to engage in such behaviour).

Nonetheless I agree with the ban on surrogacy, and agree with those who support this move by the Italian government while condemning many of their other policies. Just as I'm happy to support the moves by Republican US states to ban hormone hormone treatments and surgery for gender-confused minors, while disagreeing with other Republican stances.

I don’t think of insemination as unnatural if the donor is known to the woman and will be known to the child. It’s IVF, anonymised donors, the complete bypass of natural selection of a mate, clinics having so much control over who procreates with who, who knows what, that is unnatural. It’s natural versus ‘lab grown’ or ‘black market’ - nothing mystical or irrational about that distinction.

Tontostitis · 28/07/2023 20:33

It's widely accepted that its wrong to take a puppy from its mother before its10 to 12 weeks old, yet a tiny baby can be taken from all the sounds, smells and heartbeats its known to spend its 4th trimester with strangers. I can't see how anyone can defend this

MichelleScarn · 28/07/2023 20:51

@TrainedByCats am sure remember a similar thread, op guilted into donation of egg and then carrying child for her golden sibling, by sibling and their parents, once child was born op then ostracised (for want of better word) from family events as golden sister didn't want any relationship forming between child and op. Sadly parents were 100% support of golden one who'd had a 'tough time'.

FannyCann · 28/07/2023 20:55

This blog examines two altruistic sister to sister surrogacy journeys.

There is low level coercion - just a general expectation that sisters will do it for their sisters, right from the moment of a cancer diagnosis, or the (female) gynaecologist who told a 17 year old that she would never be able to carry a baby (not discussed but presumably some congenital disorder) and asked "Do you have a sister?" "Oh that's all right, you'll be able to have a baby then". (I paraphrase).

One of the women describes her difficult pregnancy and her anxiety, her weekly counselling.

What loving sister would do that to her sister? And that woman and her husband had 21 nephews and nieces between them. As much as they might want their own baby, why not be the best aunt, the best uncle, enjoy the children and support their siblings as parents? Instead of putting a sister through hell to provide a baby for them.

Yes I do realise the surrogate sister is proud of what she did and pleased to have given her sister a chance to be a mother. But she definitely saw it as a difficult and challenging unpleasant experience to get through because she had committed herself to do this. Really. Don't do this to your sister!

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/at-your-cervix/id1530617581?i=1000527762344

Link to one of the podcasts.

stopsurrogacynowuk.org/2022/12/22/lets-talk-about-altruistic-surrogacy-from-co-founder-liz-purslow-long-read/

fireflyloo · 28/07/2023 21:09

This is such good news for women and babies. I wish the uk would do similar.

In regards to the other argument (on this thread) about lesbian/ gay couples. I think there should be a different process. Birth certificates should be about the biology of how a child came to be. There can only be one biological mother and one father. Parental responsibility though can be different and if a non biological parent (within a gay relationship) wants to have responsibility then there should be a process/ certificate that recognises that legally.

Link3 · 28/07/2023 22:15

Things are progressing at breakneck speed, so 2019 probably gives us very old statistic compared to how things stand now.

I heard a piece on Irish radio recently where the convenor of a surrogacy conference held in Dublin was being interviewed. He said that nearly 80% of attendees* *were gay men. He said it was impossible to meet demand.

Backstreets · 28/07/2023 22:30

Rudderneck · 28/07/2023 19:38

Thinking about this idea of far right governments, or those which have some policies that are very offensive to many, in the context of this issue, I have come to think that the divide may be something to do with a differernce in left wing thinking in general.

At this point in time, though perhaps not always, the left seems wedded to some ways of thinking that just ignore the real world. They focus on ideology and are simply not pragmatic. If reality doesn't fit, they ignore it.

Overall, the political right seems more pragmatic, and this is largely true even of some of the more extreme right wing parties. They are talkingabout things people are concerned with.

Regardless of other things, starting from reality is almost always going to result in better policy making than ignoring reality. Sometimes maybe even if the solution they are proposing doesn't appeal in many ways, it will still be more effective at addressing the issues affecting people. When the other party just has their finger in their ears saying, la la la, the chances are what they will come up with is not fit for purpose.

Immigration is probably the most obvious example of this. It's clearly a problem, people are clearly concerned about it. But progressives seem unwilling to talk about the elements that worry people, or even acknowledge them, and so their policies don't seem convincing.

This is so well put. I feel abandoned by the left I grew up with.

FannyCann · 28/07/2023 22:42

He said it was impossible to meet demand.

Obviously this will be so. Very few women really want to go through pregnancy and childbirth to give (sell) their baby to a stranger. The more E are fed fluffy stories of happy parents who have obtained a baby via surrogacy the more it will be normalised and the sense of entitlement some people feel will grow. But the number of women prepared to do this will remain small. Then what are they going to do?

Bluesheeps · 28/07/2023 23:38

It’s interesting to read the views of people far more informed and passionate about surrogacy than myself.
I think I have always believed if it’s between consenting adults and informed individuals, in a way I have supported surrogacy in an altruistic way to help with infertility.
Now seeing or being exposed, to individuals doing it as a choice to avoid pregnancy im more conflicted. It only gets more complicated with homosexual couples.

Backstreets · 28/07/2023 23:42

Bluesheeps · 28/07/2023 23:38

It’s interesting to read the views of people far more informed and passionate about surrogacy than myself.
I think I have always believed if it’s between consenting adults and informed individuals, in a way I have supported surrogacy in an altruistic way to help with infertility.
Now seeing or being exposed, to individuals doing it as a choice to avoid pregnancy im more conflicted. It only gets more complicated with homosexual couples.

Very common among the very rich. Pop singer Grimes - a woman in her early thirties I believe, with a long history of eating disorders and an obsession with being thin - had TWO children by surrogate with Elon Musk.

Older celeb mums like Naomi Campbell and Janet Jackson “welcoming” babies in their fifties. Wonder how. It’s abhorrent.

Bluesheeps · 28/07/2023 23:44

@Backstreets but then if you have successful women, who missed the boat, but can be good mothers?

Backstreets · 28/07/2023 23:46

Bluesheeps · 28/07/2023 23:44

@Backstreets but then if you have successful women, who missed the boat, but can be good mothers?

Still doesn’t give them the right to use another woman’s body to grow one.

plenty of older celeb mums adopt. Madonna, Charlize.

Bluesheeps · 28/07/2023 23:47

No not a right obviously, but if someone is happy to do it?

Backstreets · 28/07/2023 23:52

well the problem is very few women out there are altruistic surrogates. Hence the law in Italy. These are usually women from poor countries using their one currency - their body - for financial gain. Here’s a fun story: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28617912

Australian couple abandon surrogate Down's Syndrome baby

An online campaign for a baby with Down's Syndrome left with his surrogate Thai mother by an Australian couple has raised over $120,000 (£70,000).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28617912

Bluesheeps · 28/07/2023 23:58

@Backstreets thank you for the link, I do think I’ve seen that story before.
I still don’t know where I sit with it. Obviously to take advantage of someone less fortunate than yourself is abhorrent.
I suppose I look at it from when we were struggling with infertility and looking at all options. It was a consideration.

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 29/07/2023 00:04

Surrogacy is the buying and selling of babies. Or, in the rarer altruistic surrogacy, giving of babies as if they are a present - like a human child is a fucking fondue set.

Babies are not a commodity. They are not a gift. Taking a baby from its mother should only ever be a last resort, not plan a.

Banning surrogacy is the right thing to do; even if I don't like who is doing it.

Bluesheeps · 29/07/2023 00:05

I suppose what I struggle with here is the dramatisation of it all….should we ban kidney donation?
where’s the line?
organ trafficking is a thing, and it’s abhorrent, but do you outlaw all organ donation?
i don’t know the answer….

tidalway · 29/07/2023 00:07

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

SirSamVimesCityWatch · 29/07/2023 00:11

Hmm, I just don't know how to tell the difference between a new born baby and a kidney, it's just far too difficult. 🙄

Bluesheeps · 29/07/2023 00:12

@SirSamVimesCityWatch @tidalway im not trying to be an arsehole.