Annaliese Dodds: "sex and gender are different"

[CheshireSplat]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jul/24/labour-vows-to-modernise-simplify-and-reform-gender-recognition-act

Hmmm. It just feels like they are trying new words combinations to see what works.

They wheel someone out every month or so to see if they can’t get a line to make it all go away

New weasel words, same intent

Labour's solution seems to be that doctors will sort it all out but are that many qualified for what is essentially an impossible task?

Doctors may not want to play their assigned role in a system that places that much responsibility on them, a responsibility to weed out the bad apples.

I would not blame them if they ran a mile from it.

It is a bit shit, but I do think it's a chink of light. It's going to be incredibly difficult for Labour to row back from the positions they've taken, but stating that single-sex exemptions are real and that sex and gender are not the same things are quite important I think. It's notable that these are buried well after a lot of stuff about making getting a GRC easier, how vulnerable trans people and how mean and horrible Tories are for pointing out that there's a problem here. Trans activists will absolutely hate it. I think what they're going for may be 'We'll make it easier for you to get a piece of paper to validate your identity, but it won't actually allow you to do anything'. But as other posters have pointed out, it's much too late for that. It's going to need clarification of the law that sex means biological sex, and support for service providers to confidently deliver that.

I'm worried by the use of 'single-sex services' rather than 'spaces'. If she just means rape crisis well that's progress at least, but what about toilets, changing rooms and hospital wards?

I also think it is not a coincidence that they've released this while Stonewall have no Chief Exec and a Chair of Trustees who's just had to be sent out in sackcloth to apologise for having publicly conceded similar points. (by the other Trustees? The staff? Who on earth is in charge there?)

I think Labour are moving away from self ID but they will find Trans activists are not ones to compromise.

Many others have come into this thinking there must a a sensible solution but come to realise we not dealing with sensible people.

And absolutely agree about doctors @zanahoria Who wants this responsibility! A bit like schools having to make 'case by case' decisions about which children are 'trans enough' to be allowed into to the opposite sex changing rooms. On what possible basis can you make a case by case decision here? What are the criteria?

I’m guessing you contact Gender GP via Zoom who say, “yes, you can have a GRC and that will be £200 please”.

Exactly this. She, and Labour in general, talking out of both sides of their mouths and hoping we won't notice.

We need to recognise that sex and gender are different – as the Equality Act does. We will make sure that nothing in our modernised gender recognition process would override the single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act. Put simply, this means that there will always be places where it is reasonable for biological women only to have access. Labour will defend those spaces, providing legal clarity for the providers of single-sex services.

Isn't this a green light for the Tories to clarify the meaning of sex in EQ act. If this is what Labour really means they'll have to support them. Come on Rishi do it now.

Exactly that. It's illegal to dock dogs' tails without a medical reason so most vets won't do it. But there is a band of vets that you can call and they'll dock the tail and give you a letter saying it was done for medical purposes.
There's always going to some who'll give you what you want when money's involved.

If everyone agree that sex doesn't mean gender, we can stop and roll back every new birth certificate issued under the GRA.

We can clearly say if a passport and driving licence record sex, gender or both. The same with the sex marker in the NHS.

We can say which SSE are protected for SS only, and which ones are for gender. And why.

And what do you do with the female children excluded from the female space because a male child is considered sufficiently special to be awarded the right of access to female children in a state of undress.

What pressures will be placed on these female children of other faiths, cultures, disabilities, histories of trauma and CSA/DV? What penalties if they refuse to shut up and suffer without protest and respect that the boy's rights and standards of service are far higher than they may be entitled to, not just as females but as lowest caste females?

It has to be stripped of the pretty pretty language and looked at this harshly because this is what it is . What the actual fuck is anyone sane doing even considering this without going 'not in my fucking country, ever'.

It is excluding and subordinating female children, including requiring them to undress and suffer indignity, loss of privacy, reduced equality of basic human rights not just for the benefit of sufficiently important male children, but because their subordination and indignity/force to make them validate a male child by exposing their body is an active part of this .

Ffs this group of nutjobs have even tried stating that females do not have a right to privacy and dignity to try and prevent their resistance to validating a male with their body. How many fucking red flags are needed for someone to realise this is really not sane.

God I wish I knew.
IMO it shouldn't. I might feel differently if the NHS was a magical wishing well that fixed everything for everyone but while women can't get HRT or breast cancer double mastectomies/reconstructions that they need, while women can't access abortions because provision in this country is frankly abysmal (I had to travel 60 miles for mine, with severe hyperemesis, on a catalogue of public transport), while women don't get any mental health support for miscarriages, while women can't get gynaecological treatment they need as a result of childbirth complications, while women are routinely dismissed and belittled by the medical profession and told their experiences are "anxiety" or "menstrual problems" or "depression" and while the first resort many GPs give women for nearly any random problem is the contraceptive pill (that makes some of us very ill mentally and physically) followed by sertraline, precisely ZERO resources should be going on this frivolous bollocks.

Anyway, sex and gender are different.
Sex is a real thing and gender is a made-up construct.

Even if this is a genuine move in the right direction, I remain unconvinced that Labour are going to get the majority they envisage in the GE. I can imagine a Labour-led coalition which would place this issue in dangerous territory for those that understand the importance of biological reality. We know where the other parties who could form a coalition stand on this.

Labour are SCARED. They know this is an issue they are vulnerable on and are trying to create a position where they can keep the Pro-woman and TRA side both happy. Obviously longterm that can't work, BUT can it work during the run up to the election next year ?

That is up to the Gender crit side. We have a 9-12 months when our voices have max impact, we can get media attention. We need to strike NOW more demos, more grass root meetings, more demands, because after Labour gains power lobby groups, corporations will have way bigger impact behind the scenes.

Key Example - the violent attack on the Women's rights rally in Aberdeen yesterday following up on the now notorious "Punch a Terf" Rally in London on July 8th.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4853886-women-wont-wheesht-aberdeen?page=1

We should be demanding Labour condemn the violence against women because of TRA rhetoric happening right now. Demand they give Labour Women's Declaration a public place at the Labour Conference in October. Because the key problem for this artificial consensus is TRA demands in reality actually require silencing women and allowing violence against them. Dodds' words are the theory. Aberdeen is the reality - the same reality as the attack in Hyde Park in 2018 .
https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/04/27/trans-identified-male-tara-wolf-charged-assault-hyde-park-attack/

You can't try to stop VAWG when actually supporting groups which love it. If Labour condemn the attack in Aberdeen they are on the spot WHEN it happens again because it will.

Everyone reading this thread should DO something to pressure Labour. Write a letter. Plan to organise a meet up, join together. Get active.

One thing I will agree with her on is that the Tories are trying to stoke up division. After all, they have in almost all their policies harmed women either directly or indirectly, or in lack of action such as misogyny not in any way being a criminal offence (possibly because Boris Johnson is the most misogynistic Prime Minister at least for 40 years).

And they have had plenty of time to act and protect women.

Labour's position doesn't stand up to scrutiny. And there will be scrutiny. And there is now less fear of scrutinising- shout out to Beth Rigby. They will come unstuck.

It's not about losing votes to the Tories - who are also untrustworthy on women's rights. It's about people not voting at all. Labour only win if enough people get out and vote for them. If people stay home (or spoil the paper) they lose.

We already do have self ID.

Because even though you need a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, the diagnosis of gender dysphoria is now made by self ID.

When the GRA was created, transsexuals went through a lengthy process of psychiatric assessment before they were approved for treatment. This no longer happens. All the gender clinics now work on 'affirmation only', the only criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is that the patient says they have it.

A 45 minute chat with a nurse, and another 45minute chat with a psychiatrist, and the patient gets their diagnosis, and can start treatment that will permanently damage their health. And presumably get the signatures required for a GRC.

It wouldn't surprise me if they were behind that suggestion of doing it that way!

misogyny not in any way being a criminal offence

Our hate crime laws don't create new criminal offences; they just make existing crimes more serious if they're motivated by race, religion, sexual orientation, disability, or transgender status.

So what would the role of the Dr be in this process? Confirming that the patient has told them they are trans? Or would the Dr still need to diagnose that their patient is trans or gender dysphoric? Couldn't this potentially cause difficulties for doctors? Especially for those doctors who are signing off on youngsters who later detransition and regret surgeries. Or for those doctors who won't sign off on someone who maybe has mental health issues?

It's almost a done deal that Labour will win th enext election, which means it is also a done deal men will be entering all women only spaces post the next election. As far as I recall it had only bene Johnson who has said words to the effect that only women can give birth etc... all the rest seem to pussy foot around it and Labour in particular seem to keep quiet as they know it's not popular but once in will make it law.

I know several trans women (and have employed two) but respecting peoples life choices is different to the duty of safeguarding women and children that Labour in particular don't seem to care about.

It will be a problem if it is brought in but the General Medical Council would probably have something to say about the bill and may object to doctors role in the system.

@fromorbit how do we find these events and are there any that aren't in far-flung corners of the UK? I have a baby and a preschooler so much as I would love to be able to hit the road and drive to Aberdeen or Portsmouth, it's not really feasible. All I've been hearing about for years is the amazing work being done by women in Scotland (and hats off to all of you). I haven't been back in the UK for long (was living abroad) and don't know where to look to get involved. I do write to my MP but it won't influence the Labour party because he's a Con.