How can we prevent the trans issue from being a gift to the right wing?

[TheTERFnextDoor]

I'm really worried about the direction politics is taking, not only in the UK but globally. The right wing is on the rise almost everywhere for various reasons.

Sadly, the gender debate will undoubtedly be a gift to the right wing over the next few years. It's the Tories ace card at the next election; the left as they are at the moment can't win this debate.

What can we practically do to prevent this? I have tried speaking to my local Mp (Labour), and he basically told me to "be kind".

I'm disappointed how the Greens, Labour and Lib Dems are so keen not to upset the trans world, that they are all letting down women.

I'm also disappointed that the best of the bad bunch (re women's rights) seems to be the Conservative Party at the moment.

Labour's current policy seems to be that only men who are certifiably insane will have access to women's safe spaces...

I honestly don't know if that's better or worst than self-id! Either way, I don't want it!

Outside GC feminists most people are happy to treat trans women as women.

Here's something Brian Cox wrote the other day, that I agree with

"I don’t like this sort of politics. Societies are made up of individuals with different backgrounds, opinions, economic interests and moral and philosophical positions. The primary job of politicians in my view is to at least try to navigate these differences (guided of course by their own hopefully well-thought out political philosophy) with the aim of building a stable consensus - a necessary foundation for a well-functioning and prosperous society. That’s very hard of course, but it should be the desired destination. Nobody gets everything they want in a democracy, because a free society is a collection of individuals who hold different views, but also nobody should feel absolutely defeated. This is not compromise in a wish-washy sense of the word - it’s the very essence of and indeed the guarantor of our freedom as individuals. As Feynman memorably said, democracy is based, like science, on a satisfactory philosophy of ignorance; running societies is very hard, and nobody really knows how to do it, so we regularly change direction whilst building on the achievements of the past. Understanding this requires humility, and the instinct to unify rather than to divide. Seeking division therefore runs counter to everyone’s interests because it undermines a key idea underpinning democracy itself - the idea that individuals have legitimately differing views."

I would rather go with Starmer, trying to find a consensus, than any politician who picks a side. Even if it's "my side".

I've followed this for years and am firmly GC and confident of my perspective. My personal opinion is we should treat trans people as the gender they identify with socially, but retain sex based differentiation when biology is important. Plus stop suggesting medical transition is the best treatment for a psychological issue and instead treat gender dysphoria like other similar illnesses (e.g. anorexia, BIID).

Outside GC feminists most people are happy to treat trans women as women.

What are you basing that assertion on?

And how does one treat someone as a woman?

Outside GC feminists most people are happy to treat trans women as women.

What are you basing that on?

Happy to treat TW as women??

on the thread about the TW in Sheffield being directed to the male changing room, it has come to light that they are also a ‘female’ official with British swimming and as such are going into the women’s changing rooms where girls under 16 are changing.

do you genuinely think women are happy about that? do you genuinely think under age girls should have their changing rooms invaded by a man just because they’re wearing a skirt and claim lady feelings? Do you think it’s quite possible that women socialised as we are to be kind and also very aware of the need to not make men angry, just might be afraid to challenge this man?

My personal opinion is we should treat trans people as the gender they identify with socially, but retain sex based differentiation when biology is important.

And how does that work then?

Exactly. Is the pp ok with males in teen girls’ changing rooms?

If they are I doubt they are in the majority as they claim.

So they should be treated as a lesbian if that's how they identify?

Fine. You do you.

If you are happy to get undressed in front of random male people because you personally believe they are women, you strip off to your heart's content, I'll hold your coat. If you're happy to live in a mixed sex facility post your rape or the night your husband tried to strangle you (again) then I wish you all the very best. If you're happy to sleep with people of either sex then that's wonderful, enjoy yourself. That's great. If you believe that Jesus Christ is your saviour, that is wonderful for you, how lovely you have a faith. If you believe in star signs, that's great, I hope it brings you enjoyment and insight.

What are we going to do though with this group of women who don't and often cannot share in this belief, and now cannot use any space at all, because you and the other women who are lucky enough to not have a problem, have given away their spaces and rights?

Are you ok with excluding a lot of vulnerable women from society, largely the ones without voices, from minority groups, so that male people never encounter any boundaries? Why do you feel that these female people don't matter when it comes to the male people's needs? And doesn't that rather knock on the head any claim to believe they are women not men, when you obviously accord one sex much greater privilege than you do the other? How do you square your exclusionary prejudice against those groups of women with your conscience?

And why would it be wrong for you and those lucky women to use mixed sex facilities with those male people with a range of TQ+ identities and all enjoy your inclusion together, while including female people by permitting them a female only space and requiring male people to respect that inclusion isn't a male-only thing?

That was regarding the post you quoted, nothingcomestonothing , not to you, obvs!

Quelle surprise.

Outside GC feminists most people are happy to treat trans women as women.

No, they really don't. Most people don't see them as women, what you maybe mean is that organisations and institutions push this and people just don't protest because who protests every societal thing they don't like? Made worse in this situation because of the bullying received if one does speak up.

Outside GC feminists most people are happy to treat trans women as women.
How do most people distinguish between a man and a trans woman in order to 'treat them as women'?

As any man - on the street, in a bar or a crowd - could potentially be a 'woman', how does one go about identifying transwomen? Is it just any man who specifically says they're a woman? Without any filter, just a man's say-so?

Hit the nail on the head @Froodwithatowel . There is never any explanation or even consideration coming from those who parrot the TWAW line, the misogyny runs deep.

The conservatives are law breaking liars who put wealth over everything and have damaged the country to the point I'm ashamed to be English. Brexit was a disaster. Boris was a liar who rewarded his friends. Truss crashed the economy. Why on earth would anyone think they are a good bet???

Exactly. And some of us still remember Thatcher.

I agree wholeheartedly. My partner and I rejoined the Labour Party a few years ago in order to try and create change from within. We've been really active and as charming as possible while trying to get the GC message heard as a women's rights issue. I think that while some in the CLP and above can see what we're on about, they don't or won't support it without permission from above. And there are a fair few who clearly regard us with hostility.

After two years of sitting through excruciatingly boring meetings and conferences we've stalled because at a certain stage in Labour politics you meet a wall of people who were brought up Labour, who have always been Labour and will die Labour, no matter what the Labour Party does. It's very black and white thinking if you can call it thinking at all. Labour is always right, the Conservatives are always wrong and asking questions isn't encouraged.

Late in life, the reality of democracy and the democratic process has dawned on me. The political options we get are dictated by a certain sort of person who can cope with the unending bureaucracy, pettiness, tedium and toeing the party line.

So yes, maybe it would be better to support the Tories to move more towards the centre. I think there is more chance of that than persuading Labour that its 'progressive' policies are regressive and that it's rife with misogyny.

I'm still waiting for the PP to tell us what treating someone as a woman consists of. How do I know if I'm being treated as a woman? What if someone accidentally treats me as a man?

Oh wait, no one in power gives a shit about my thoughts, feelings, needs or wishes. Thereby proving that they know what sex I am.

Hand goes up - I know, I know what this mythical treating as a women is - it's sharing lippy and make up tips, and having pillow fights whilst wearing baby doll pyjamas and swishing your hair about.

It means you don't discriminate against people if they conform to opposite sex stereotypes and you retain single sex spaces.

Same here. The people currently identifying as left wing are as truthful as the men identifying as women.

I have very long hair since lockdown in 2010. It’s hot in summer and I just put it up in a giant claw clip or ponytail. What I never ever do is swish it. I am clearly a man in a woman’s body.

Completely agree with this.

There seems a trend among activist groups of many different kinds to act as if the Labour Party was obliged to act as their political arm. Whether it's Stonewall or Sex Matters or the European Movement - it's like "oh, we're not voting Labour unless it does absolutely 100% of what we want regardless of whether that works electorally".

I'm not going to vote Tory - a party that tried to take away (illegally) money to buy food from pregnant asylum seekers, is corrupt to the core and looking to weasel out of even it's own meagre climate commitments - because they made the relevant changes to their trans policy slightly before Labour did.

It now seems that many prominent GCs have moved from a position of warning that the Labour position would alienate voters - which is fine - to using the issue to try and move people to support "anti-wokeism" generally and the Tory Party more specifically. Why would Keir Starmer make any further concessions to people who clearly are never going to vote Labour anyway?

Eh?

You said TW should be treated as women. Now you're saying they shouldn't be discriminated against. Which is it?

Feeble jokes aside, what discrimination is solved by treating men as if they are women? I've not heard any GC types wanting to hinder people who don't conform to gender stereotypes. Feminists are big fans of not conforming to gender stereotypes. And if people who wish to appear as the opposite sex experience discrimination because of it, that would be illegal under the PC of gender reassignment.

The PC of gender reassignment says that those who hold the PC must not be treated less favourably than those who don't. I.e., a male who wishes to present as a women in clothing, name, genital surgery, whatever, must not be treated less favourably than a male who doesn't. It does not mean that said male must be treated the same as a woman. This is a very commonly misunderstood Stonewall version of the law.

So I'm still wondering how one treats a male as a woman. And why you think it's required or desirable.

I'm not sure what "treating someone as the gender they identify with" even means?

I increasingly see cross dressing men around where I live ( I wouldn't know how they 'identify' unless I asked them). They are clearly male - and as such I perceive them as male. Quite often these men are dressed with clear erotic motivation.

In general, I'm polite if spoken to politely, and say please and thank you when and if appropriate. cHow would I treat them "as a woman?"