Friend's child. Is this worrying?

[namechange102938]

I'm probably opening a can of worms here but I would really like to hear from others on this.

The situation is this:

My lovely female friend is married to another woman. They had a DD. When DD was 3, they had a DS. DD had always been more interested in trucks than dolls. After DS was born, DD started saying that she was a boy too. The parents immediately switched to male pronouns and within the year they've changed the child's name to a boy name and even changed the birth certificate and the passport, erasing the child's birth identity. We're in a liberal US state.

I have trans friends, but they were all adults when they transitioned so I don't know what the healthy approach is for children. At 3 years old it seems to me that there's a possibility that being a boy was appealing since the only boy in the house (the new baby) was naturally getting a lot of attention. Also, a love of trucks and a dislike of dolls surely shouldn't matter.

I know my friends deeply love their children and think they're doing what's best for the child. I'm just concerned that perhaps the child isn't trans, but it would now be very difficult for him to change his mind. Changing the name and the birth certificate feels unnecessary at this stage. It seems to me that it send a message a child might interpret as 'they love me as DS more than they loved me as DD, so I can never be DD again no matter how I feel'.

Ironically, it seems very binary and limiting. They're already planning to use puberty blockers. The child takes part in trans events and has a whole identity based around this one part of him even though he's now just 7.

Do many very young trans children change their minds? Does this seem concerning or am I just out of touch?

And yes, strongly agree, why not the follow up longitudinal studies post-transition? If all they care about is the best outcomes for trans kids, why not do this research? It's disturbingly different to normal healthcare.

I consider transing a 3 year old, or any child, as child abuse. Psychological. I say this as I have a 3 year old and she often says she is a boy, or a cat, whatever she feels like saying. I would actually terminate my friendship as I would not be friends with someone I considered to be abusive towards a child. I'd personally be very blunt about it too, as I hope my friends would be to me. It's abuse and needs to be called out as such.

I find it odd they want to give the message that a bit can't display feminine behaviour or qualities without losing the validity of being a boy, it's so regressive and rooted in stereotypes. My Ds is a lovely sensitive boy, loves children and played with dolls when younger, I can't imagine how awful a message it would have been to leap to saying he's not a boy because he is this way. He'll be a lovely dad one day if he decides to have kids.
As pp said it's abuse. Let children be themselves with a rich plethora of emotional and behavioural characteristics without telling them they're in the wrong box and they should get into this box over here.

I guess that giving such food choices assumes that different members if the family are all eating different things. at meal times. Obviously as a parent you get to know the food preferences of different family members and can take those into consideration when deciding what to prepare and cook for dinner. But giving a four year old such a choice when out shopping is a step too far in my view. I often see young children looking a bit flummoxed when parents offer them such choices.

We've been friends for years and she's an amazing, loving mom

She's an abusive moron who's ruining her child's life and planning to do real, irreversible physical damage to them in the future.

FGS, I wanted to be a boy from my 3rd birthday until I was a teenager. Bloody glad noone took any notice of me.

It seems innocuous enough to go along with it, but like you say, will the child feel able to change their mind should they wish to do so or will being trans become part of their identity and feel like part of their worth to their parents?

This whole gender business is so ridiculous.

I was a tomboy who cried myself to sleep on the eve of my 10th birthday because I knew double figures was the start of me turning into a woman, and I longed to be a boy. My best friend called herself “Bill” and I was “Jim”, and we were going to cut our breasts off when they dared to appear. We went around topless on our bikes like all the boys did, and nothing made us happier than being mistaken for boys, it’s easy at 9 or 10 to look like the opposite sex.

Anyway, I know this isn’t an uncommon tale, but I was talking to my Dad and sister about it a few weeks ago, and although they did vaguely remember this phase once I’d mentioned it, they’d completely forgotten in the interim, it had meant so little at the time to them, it was just me being a tomboy. It was NORMAL.

If we’d been that age today, my friend and I would have egged each other on to go down the transition route.

It's horrific. I would say something. You've got nothing to lose really, because your friendship is doomed if they stay on this path. Imagine how you'll feel when this child gets medicated and their life is a mess. You won't want to be around them to witness that. Don't be compliant in seeing a child's life be destroyed. Say something.

This. Much better put than the way I said it earlier. We should not say nothing when we are witnessing child abuse.

"Child centred" is OK - it puts the child's needs at the centre. It's "child led" that's the big problem here. You don't let a 3 year old lead you across the road just because they want to get to the ice cream van. Adults teach children about traffic. And you don't let a 3 year old lead you into believing that they really can or should change sex. Parents anchor children to reality.

I used to be a teacher......and in my experience I also found too much 'child centred' learning to be counterproductive and makes the teacher's job almost impossible.

I found a lot of interest in Frank Furedi's book about boundaries ( mentioned earlier) - and certainly his reflections on the dissolution of boundaries between childhood and adulthood and the abdication of adult responsibility - which in turn makes life more difficult for children.

I'm not sure I want to get into too much about child centred philosophies here - because the thread is primarily about the child in question being transed by the parents. Though it did bring tom ind the Furedi book.

Do you really think it's anti trans to state that a 3 year old child should not have their gender changed by their parents? That's a genuine question.

My 3 year old told me he was a pirate and made me call him Scallywag for 5 days straight and corrected me every time I used his actual name.

He's had many, Spidey, Captain Barnacles, John 😂 but only for a few hours here and there. Scallywag lasted nearly a week.

Let kids be kids and stop forcing adult thought processes on to them, for christ sake.

True - if you parent a child by agreeing to every delusion or idea they have, where will it end?

My brother believed that you only had a set number of words you were allowed to say, and when you used them up, you were mute. So he didn’t speak for a while.

You asked if young children like this change their mind but the truth is this is just an experiment as it’s never been common to act this way with your children. Especially so so young. My child is just 2 and he still doesn’t quite grasp how the world works. The other day he thought a balloon floating out of screen might appear in our room. It’s ridiculous and dangerous for parents to act this way with children.

Children with gender issues do tend to grow out of it with puberty but generally the children in those studies weren’t socially transitioned. I don’t know how this poor girl isn’t going to be messed up to grow up being told she’s now a boy and then puberty comes around! Even if she does say she wants to be a girl again this is all just a mess. Also putting a label on her and putting her in this box might make it harder for her to realise she is a girl as the whole gender ideological belief is all about how children have an innate sense of their gender and how the only way to resolve it is to transition.

Poor girl. Personally I’d find it hard to stay friends.

Thank you ballincat43

Just ran into a similar situation. Fortunately not a close friend, but it's still pretty shocking. I guess the easiest path is just to break off contact -- she is pretty much doing the same anyway as she's detected how skeptical I am of gender ideology. And my own (actual female) daughters are my main concern. But I feel for the poor kid and the fact that his mom seems all the way locked in already - he liked wearing dresses sometime so now he is a "she" and everyone in their sphere must be onboard or blocked out. He's only 6. Is there anything I can do?

Some parents are complete lunatics. Those poor kids.

I'm with @parietal - the best outcome in the short term would be for the parents to identify their child as nonbinary. Agree also with the pp suggesting nonmedicalised trans role models.

How crunchy are they as parents (using US slang here, not sure if I'm right)? Would they be open to a bit of very mild 'doctors don't know everything, natural is best' stuff? It would go against the grain to head that way because I'm so pro vax and anti quack medicine, but I am also very much 'fresh air and exercise, an apple a day keeps the doctor away' type. I wonder if they are too. It doesn't seem to play the same in the US.

And I'd take the kid to soccer games. Anywhere where there's plenty of active women getting on with being awesome while also female.

Poor child. This is not worrying, it's terrifying. Do all you can to deter them from puberty blockers. https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

Perhaps they feel their own lives would have been easier if they were male, or one of them was seen as male? You could maybe ask if they are planning to transition themselves?

The parents will be under extraordinary pressure from their LGBT community to affirm the child as trans. Going against this will require a lot of reflection and confidence.

They need to realise that they may be inadvertently transing the gay away. For that, they need to encounter perspectives like those of Buck Angel, Scott Newgent and Keira Bell. That’s the only thing that will shake this loose. They’re not going to listen to straight and gender-confirming women about this. Gender critical transmen, detransitioners (especially lesbian ones) and butch lesbian TERFs are who will change their minds.

Children of that age say all sorts of things. It’s time (some) parents stopped treating their toddlers as if they are oracles and remember they are still learning about language and concepts. Parents should be providing them with a broad range of non-sexist opportunities to help them do this

My DD’s 4 year old friend has been saying she wants to be a boy since her baby brother was born. Fortunately her parents are very sensible and have told her she can’t be a boy, but can have her hair as short as she wants, wear and play what she wants. There are definitely some sensory issues there - boys’ trainers are simpler with fewer shiny / sparkly bits and she hates the feel of skirts or dresses. She is lucky to have the parents she does.

(My own DD4 has just declared she’s a spinosaurus today - had to Google that one.)

Ds used to go around pretending to be a dog (a police follow to be precise). Some days I’d go along and we’d have barking conversations on the way to nursery.