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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

536 replies

Igneococcus · 19/07/2023 06:02

Sorry can't do sharetoken on this device, I'll do one later if nobody else posts one.
Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told (thetimes.co.uk)

What an utter mess this all is.

"Prentis said that a blanket ban would be unlawful because the Equalities Act states that gender reassignment is a “protected characteristic”, regardless of age. She gave the same advice when ministers asked whether there could be a ban on social transitioning for primary school children."

Tougher transgender guidance for schools is unlawful, Sunak told

Rishi Sunak is expected to delay issuing transgender guidance for schools after the attorney-general and government lawyers warned that plans to strengthen it w

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-gender-guidance-schools-uk-pupils-pronouns-transition-2023-3w6qdskpc

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dimorphism · 19/07/2023 11:20

It's hard not to believe there is a definite agenda to destroy safeguarding for children in schools. This will badly affect 'trans' children as well as all the other children.

Social transition should first be discussed in terms of safeguarding of all children, including 'trans' children, according to the relevant laws and statutory guidance for schools and only then should the Equality Act even come into the argument.

dimorphism · 19/07/2023 11:22

Or more bluntly - I say it's bollocks this is about caring about trans children. It's about an adult agenda.

Anyone who cares about children wants robust safeguarding for all children. Social transition as currently happening in schools is destroying safeguarding.

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 11:27

It’s scary how simple it is to normalise this for children

Religion endures for a reason

There are dc who do are free to wear what they like etc, at dd’s school, and they do

Adults have a choice, say yes that’s fine and you’re still a boy or girl

Or TRAs use it to promote their cause

Really concerning

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 11:30

Also adults in a position of authority reinforcing a fundamental and basic lie is not without harm to the dc hearing it

LonginesPrime · 19/07/2023 11:33

Regardless of whether it covers children or not, the Equality Act still allows for single-sex exceptions, so the guidance could still mandate that boys are not allowed to use the girls' changing rooms, however they identify. That would probably reduce the appeal of social transition to some extent.

Yes, exactly - it's obvious that we don't have all the facts on gender issues in children (and probably won't until well after the Cass review has concluded and the new GID centres have made headway with their research), so anyone who thought this awaited schools guidance would be the definitive guide to handling trans children was living in cloud cuckoo land.

What schools urgently need is interim guidance that protects children and their rights under the existing laws (including to single-sex spaces and to holding gender critical views) now, not a perfect, comprehensive guide to everything that might possibly happen published in five years' time.

If they can't come to a conclusion on how to handle the social transitioning aspect now (or need to delay to change the law, etc), they should still release the rest of the guidance as an interim measure before September while they untangle the rest in the background.

This is because if they release no guidance, the schools have to grapple with further inevitable social transitions and how to balance everyone's rights and needs, whereas at least interim guidance on how to balance everyone's rights and needs would help to protect all the other children and school staff who are forced to provide the social aspect of that child's social transition.

It's not good enough for the government to delay again because "it's too complicated" - of course it's bloody complicated, but it's your job to guide schools on how to deal with it, so tough.

MishyJDI · 19/07/2023 11:46

It never fails to amaze me the lack of compassion, and empathy for trans children on this forum.

“but what about the normal children and people” what about their rights to be discriminatory?

really sad 😢

Helleofabore · 19/07/2023 11:49

MishyJDI · 19/07/2023 11:46

It never fails to amaze me the lack of compassion, and empathy for trans children on this forum.

“but what about the normal children and people” what about their rights to be discriminatory?

really sad 😢

As usual you fail to either understand, or acknowledge, that all children have rights. You seem to lack the understanding that discrimination is not 'bad' by itself and can be legitimate. And at all times, a balance between rights and needs should be sought.

But, keep cracking on with the misrepresentations and on getting in a general shaming post where ever you can!

Needmoresleep · 19/07/2023 11:51

Mishy interesting to hear your views on detransitioners, who have deep regrets that their teenage assertion that they were trans was never properly tested or probed.

ArabeIIaScott · 19/07/2023 11:53

MishyJDI · 19/07/2023 11:46

It never fails to amaze me the lack of compassion, and empathy for trans children on this forum.

“but what about the normal children and people” what about their rights to be discriminatory?

really sad 😢

So at what age do you think a child should be allowed to legally change sex, Mishy? Any age at all?

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 11:55

MishyJDI · 19/07/2023 11:46

It never fails to amaze me the lack of compassion, and empathy for trans children on this forum.

“but what about the normal children and people” what about their rights to be discriminatory?

really sad 😢

Do you have an age in mind or are you for dc of any age being influenced in this way?

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 11:59

Mishy is just here to distract but Mishy has reminded me of a good point. Mishy refers to “trans children”. Listening to Kemi speak, it sounds as though the guidance will not use the term “trans child” but rather refer to gender distressed children. I think this is significant move and the change of language will help reframe the issue as a safeguarding one rather than a social justice one.

TooBigForMyBoots · 19/07/2023 12:00

The Tory party is incompetent.

Rudderneck · 19/07/2023 12:01

RebelliousCow · 19/07/2023 10:20

But surely as the PM he surely has more clout? It just concerns me that he is saying " we need more info". Surely if he was serious he'd already have all of the info to hand?

Theresa May is a strange one.....very 'Church of England'

No, the PM still needs to get technical advice where it's relevant. In this case, legal advice on how what they want to do will actually play out. Bad or illegal rules or legislation won't get a pass because he's PM, nor should they.

Tbh I think this is the kind of care that's been missing from a lot of policy work in recent years, and that's part of why we are where we are. It's all about performative policy, not crafting something effective.

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 12:05

rogdmum · 19/07/2023 11:59

Mishy is just here to distract but Mishy has reminded me of a good point. Mishy refers to “trans children”. Listening to Kemi speak, it sounds as though the guidance will not use the term “trans child” but rather refer to gender distressed children. I think this is significant move and the change of language will help reframe the issue as a safeguarding one rather than a social justice one.

I think a couple of pp do this but I agree this is useful

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 12:23

Change this law quickly?
Sunak doesn't really have a working majority, his party is split on this.
There's probably a majority across all parties not to change the law.
Up that particular creek with no paddle.

LoobiJee · 19/07/2023 12:23

Well, it no longer “never fails to amaze me” when a certain poster shows up and makes wholly false claims about discussions on this forum. Rather, it’s entirely predictable that a certain poster does that.

No one here “lacks empathy and compassion” for children who self describe as a member of the opposite sex or for children who self describe as being of neither sex.

On the contrary, preventing long term harm to those children resulting from blindly complying with the demands of vociferous campaign groups is what motivates parents on here, especially parents of children affected by the infiltration into schools of these pro-child sex change campaigners.

RebelliousCow · 19/07/2023 12:25

MishyJDI · 19/07/2023 11:46

It never fails to amaze me the lack of compassion, and empathy for trans children on this forum.

“but what about the normal children and people” what about their rights to be discriminatory?

really sad 😢

Most of us are parents; many of us do, or have, worked in various children's services or in teaching. That is what is motivating people. There is no such thing as a 'trans child'. It is a social construction that is being foisted on vulnerable young people who have emotional and mental health issues, plus the usual childhood issues around developing identity and sexuality.

There isbtotal empathy for those being misled, by responsible adults, into believeing they have been born in the wrong body - or that they can change their sex. This is not kind at at all. It is downright irresposnible and utterly delusional.

When children ask if breasts can grow back after mastectomy, or if a boy can grow up to have a baby it is a sure sign that children are confused.

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 12:27

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 12:23

Change this law quickly?
Sunak doesn't really have a working majority, his party is split on this.
There's probably a majority across all parties not to change the law.
Up that particular creek with no paddle.

Where do you see the numbers on which way it would go?

There’s always a mandate after a GE should people vote for it

Ramblingnamechanger · 19/07/2023 12:31

At least the Times allows comments!

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 12:36

Sunny, this isn't good enough. If Sunak pitches this change, plus the EHRC advice, and even a refusal to enact trans conversion ban legislation, for the next govt if re-elected, I won't fall for the bait.

The Tories have had majorities in 2015, 2017 and especially 2019, to get business done, and they haven't managed it.

Johnson a massive disappointment especially just 3.5 short years ago.

The debate needs to be had for us to see the lay of the land.

But a bit like Brexit, I now see total gridlock in trying to change this.

Institutional capture pretty much complete.

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 12:43

RealityFan · 19/07/2023 12:36

Sunny, this isn't good enough. If Sunak pitches this change, plus the EHRC advice, and even a refusal to enact trans conversion ban legislation, for the next govt if re-elected, I won't fall for the bait.

The Tories have had majorities in 2015, 2017 and especially 2019, to get business done, and they haven't managed it.

Johnson a massive disappointment especially just 3.5 short years ago.

The debate needs to be had for us to see the lay of the land.

But a bit like Brexit, I now see total gridlock in trying to change this.

Institutional capture pretty much complete.

But where are you seeing the numbers to say it won’t get through?

Also that seems a contradiction to what you’ve said next

Either he can get it through now or not. If not go for a mandate at GE.

The public will is either there or not

If MPs have it wrong and won’t pass on it, let the public do the job and put it in the manifesto

dimorphism · 19/07/2023 12:50

The thing is that schools who are socially transitioning are breaking the law NOW. They're breaking the law on safeguarding and on the requirement for single sex toilets. It's interesting how they seem concerned about a discrimination lawsuit but not one based on safeguarding failures.

Obviously what we need are some successful lawsuits against schools who've socially transitioned against the parents knowledge / best interests of all the children.

Parents just need to organise and demand their children are safeguarded properly. I very much hope the parents of the girls assaulted in mixed sex toilets bring lawsuits, I'd donate.

SunnyEgg · 19/07/2023 12:52

dimorphism · 19/07/2023 12:50

The thing is that schools who are socially transitioning are breaking the law NOW. They're breaking the law on safeguarding and on the requirement for single sex toilets. It's interesting how they seem concerned about a discrimination lawsuit but not one based on safeguarding failures.

Obviously what we need are some successful lawsuits against schools who've socially transitioned against the parents knowledge / best interests of all the children.

Parents just need to organise and demand their children are safeguarded properly. I very much hope the parents of the girls assaulted in mixed sex toilets bring lawsuits, I'd donate.

Agree on this

dimorphism · 19/07/2023 12:53

The problem is that parents whose children have been harmed in school don't want to re-traumatise those children with a punishing prolonged legal case (look at the length of time Maya, Allison, Denise, Rachel's court cases took) which is why I hope some 'class action' type legal challenges can be made which will reduce the pressure on any one family.

OldCrone · 19/07/2023 12:54

MishyJDI · 19/07/2023 11:46

It never fails to amaze me the lack of compassion, and empathy for trans children on this forum.

“but what about the normal children and people” what about their rights to be discriminatory?

really sad 😢

Transsexual children? What about not confusing children with adult concepts?