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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DM -Italy erases names of gay mothers from birth certs

486 replies

DustyLee123 · 16/07/2023 08:02

Can’t do links. Story about removing one mother from the certs where there’s two female names .

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NicCageisnotNickCave · 16/07/2023 17:14

TangledRoots · 16/07/2023 17:09

@NicCageisnotNickCave the rules for ‘father’ is that he has to be there, present at the registering of birth or to be married to the mother. The assumption is that he is the biological father, but because that can only be proved by a DNA test (only available since the 1990s), the assumption was that the couple presenting or married were the genuine biological parents. The fact that paternity couldn’t be proved until recently doesn’t mean that father on the birth certificate is not intended to mean biological father, but just ‘second parent’, or ‘unrelated person who at the time of birth promises to play the role of parent for the rest of this child’s life’.

Enough of all of this retrospective skewing of meaning to suit modern purposes.

None of this counters my point.

when birth certificates began no one could envisage the technological advances that would cause all the current issues.

but it was widely known that not every baby born to a married woman would be the biological offspring of the husband. No one at the register office said ‘but Mrs Smith, your husband was away with his regiment 9 months ago!’

TangledRoots · 16/07/2023 17:14

Quisisana · 16/07/2023 17:12

BC is not there to benefit and give recognition to someone who is considered a non-biological parent at time of birth though is it, it is (and needs to be an official record of the child’s birth).
This also benefits the child though! I agree with @NicCageisnotNickCave has written above. I used to think that the birth certificate should be about the biological parents but, on reflection, I don't think enforcing this is in anyone's best interest. Yes, a child should be allowed to have information about their genetic heritage but I don't think a birth certificate is actually the right place for this.

How about the grandchildren or great-grandchildren? How do they find out about their ancestry if their genetic heritage isn’t in the expected place?

Qilin · 16/07/2023 17:15

I don't think gender should come into it at all. A birth certificate should simply state biological sex. That's important information and can be used for all manner of scientific, medical and other uses. Gender, as it is now, appears to be less useful.

PriOn1 · 16/07/2023 17:17

”On a wider point, this thread - along with many others atm - is a worrying illustration of how much kneejerk homophobia is creeping back because of the reaction to gender ideology nonsense. It's real backlash stuff and people need to be more careful.”

Bollocks. Stop accusing us of homophobia, because that is not what this is.

As I understand it, this is a discussion about legal changes which have been brought in without it being publicized and concern for how that might impact the child. It is nothing to do with an irrational hatred of lesbians.

I have my child’s birth certificate beside me and it unequivocally gives “Father’s name” and “Father’s Occupation”.

So in the early 2000s in Scotland, it was supposedly the father who was recorded on the birth certificate. When the “Registration of Births, Deaths and Marriages (Scotland Act 1965) was written, however, it does appear that because of the different morality at the time, the listed father was generally the woman’s husband and father may not have meant biological father, as I had always assumed, other than that, in the majority of cases, the husband was also the father.

So from reading the law, it seems in 1965, if the biological father wasn’t married to the mother, it took an extra effort to get him added. He could be listed, but the mother had to jump through hoops to allow that to happen and I suspect that was mostly about the moral values of the time. Unmarried mothers were very much frowned upon.

So presumably, it was quite well understood, if never openly mentioned, that if a man married a pregnant woman, even if he was not the father, he would be listed, perhaps because not listing anyone was scandalous. Presumably, according to the morals of the time, it was better to have any husband, who would be listed as the father, as otherwise the child would be considered to be a bastard, which was very much frowned upon.

So those saying it’s realistically always been the man legally attached to the woman ahead of the child’s biological father are in fact more correct than those of us assuming it’s always been the biological father.

It strikes me that this all stems from earlier times, when women couldn’t own property and therefore virtually needed a man to be able to exist. So legally having a husband was more important for the child than knowing who its father was. Genetics were obviously important, which is why Queens always had to be virginal, but obviously birth certificates have always been more of a fudge than I had realized when it comes to fathers.

It has crossed my mind, reading this thread, that perhaps only one parent could be listed, that being the mother, but of course now, even that is somewhat complicated as the birth mother and the genetic mother are no longer always the same.

So I don’t have any answers, other than it makes sense to me to have it specified what role the second parent listed has in relation to the child. And perhaps we need to bear in mind that biological parentage is actually more important now than it used to be, as we recognize the clear effects of genetics on health.

I feel that perhaps those making law should perhaps start again from scratch and work out what a birth certificate should usefully document and why, and take it from there. Continued fudging is not necessarily the best way forward.

Quisisana · 16/07/2023 17:17

TangledRoots · 16/07/2023 17:14

How about the grandchildren or great-grandchildren? How do they find out about their ancestry if their genetic heritage isn’t in the expected place?

I think this is only partially relevant. I would guess that almost everyone's family tree includes fathers who were not actually the fathers...

Quisisana · 16/07/2023 17:21

Continued fudging is not necessarily the best way forward.
I don't think it's fudging to have mother + other parent on the bc. There is no genetic testing for the other parent whatever sex.

TangledRoots · 16/07/2023 17:25

NicCageisnotNickCave · 16/07/2023 17:14

None of this counters my point.

when birth certificates began no one could envisage the technological advances that would cause all the current issues.

but it was widely known that not every baby born to a married woman would be the biological offspring of the husband. No one at the register office said ‘but Mrs Smith, your husband was away with his regiment 9 months ago!’

I am directly disputing “The ‘father’ on a birth certificate has always been the second parent with legal responsibility for the child. ’Father’ has never really meant biological father”.

It is simply not true. There was an assumption that people take marriage vows “forsaking all others” would be in good faith, therefore the man a woman was married to must be the biological father of her children. Any laxness about it would be to spare a child any ‘dishonour’ of being born out of wedlock. A father is not just ‘a second parent with legal responsibility’.

sleepyscientist · 16/07/2023 17:26

Qilin · 16/07/2023 17:15

I don't think gender should come into it at all. A birth certificate should simply state biological sex. That's important information and can be used for all manner of scientific, medical and other uses. Gender, as it is now, appears to be less useful.

If your looking at it from a genetics in medicine point of view knowing one of the parents had X narrows down your differential but it doesn't prove it you need to do the test. We have tests for most genetic disease now so knowing family history is even less important if you have the money to fund the testing

SBHon · 16/07/2023 17:28

I have my child’s birth certificate beside me and it unequivocally gives “Father’s name” and “Father’s Occupation”.
If it had been a woman you were married to instead though then that same birth certificate would say ‘parent’ in place of ‘father’.

MichelleScarn · 16/07/2023 17:37

Gothambutnotahamster · 16/07/2023 16:39

I agree @MalagaNights - so much in this area is around what the adults want and expect the children to live with the consequences, even when it's known to be detrimental to them.

@Quisisana whoever raises the children can change through a child's lifetime. That is entirely separate to the biological reality of who has given birth to the child.

I often think, 'just because we can, doesn't mean we should'.

In my opinion, we're going to see a lot of seriously messed up adults in the next couple of decades due to the actions of very selfish adults now, putting their own needs ahead of what's right for the children.

Also agree, the birth certificate belongs to the child, not the parents whether biological or raising the child.

aramox1 · 16/07/2023 17:38

PriOn1 · 16/07/2023 08:25

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12302509/Italy-erases-names-gay-mothers-childrens-birth-certificates-crackdown.html

I’m not sure how I feel about this, actually. I thought, until very recently, that a birth certificate was a factual document which listed either one or both biological parents. Obviously occasionally the father listed might not be the biological dad, either by accident or design, but it hadn’t crossed my mind that it was possible to list a parent who demonstratively was not a biological parent.

I would be interested to know when this change in birth certificates occurred. So many of the “rights” that we are supposed to get up in arms about when they are removed are “rights” that I didn’t even know existed and don’t make much sense to me.

And yes, I absolutely support the rights of lesbian women to be mothers and also for them to be able to adopt the children of their spouse, or for it to be somehow registered that they have full parental rights and so on. I’m just not sure that registration on the birth certificate is the right way to go about it.

And that isn’t because I am anti-lesbian. If a man and woman are together, but they know the man isn’t the child’s biological father, I wouldn’t expect him to be put on the birth certificate. Obviously that’s much more open to abuse, but that doesn’t mean we should change the function of the birth certificate more generally, which appears to have already happened.

It changed about 15 years ago to allow gay parents to be named on birth certificates. I get your point- birth certificates as biological - but realistically many aren't and many of those kids would otherwise have 'unknown' for the second parent

Drenton · 16/07/2023 17:40

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JeandeServiette · 16/07/2023 17:43

beefwithmyteeth · 16/07/2023 08:52

The trouble is that the birth certificate has always been a document certifying the circumstances of someone's birth and the people who are going to be the parents now, which is complicated now those two categories don't have to involve exactly the same people anymore. All they need to do is add slightly to the birth certificate, have details of who the biological mother and father (if given) are and then also who the 'actual' parents are, whether that's two mothers, two fathers or whatever. Then the certificate can still fulfill all purposes.

Yes. It would help with donor conceptions, and surrogacy situations, as well as same sex couples.

One of my DC was donor conceived and I would actively prefer it. The child deserves a record of genetic parenthood as well as the social/legal parents.

Too many official documents are becoming misleading.

Thatgirl1981 · 16/07/2023 17:43

You can’t have two mothers sorry she’s correct I have adopted two children I am not named of the birth certificates
I have been issues with a adoption certificate

and that’s why the fucking transgenders fuck my off I am closer to being my children’s mother than they are a women 🤨but it would be a lie to claim I am the Children biological parent so I am not allowed to alter their birth certificate but transgenders are allow to lie on there’s

Jigslaw · 16/07/2023 17:44

It's a shame as it erases parental responsibility for the woman who didn't carry the child, but this could be ensured other ways im guessing. Certainly some lesbian couples one woman will carry the child through pregnancy but actually the fertilised egg is that of the other; who would people list as the biological mother? I've never seen people as bothered about birth certificates as on here mind, I expect plenty have the wrong father on for a start.

Thatgirl1981 · 16/07/2023 17:45

It’s not complicated the people who are your biological parents get named
of birth certificates everyone elase adoption certificate or SGO or parental responsibility certificate

Jigslaw · 16/07/2023 17:45

I say who carried the child but actually not sure what happens in this case if the fertilised egg is from the other woman.

Ketzele · 16/07/2023 17:45

Pri0n1, I'm surprised you think it ok to tell me my concerns about homophobia are bollocks.

I'm a lesbian who has been active against gender ideology for a long time. It has cost me quite a lot. I'm an ex board member of Stonewall and a few years ago met with them to discuss my concerns, one of which was the inevitable backlash and how that will affect lesbians and gay men. (You can imagine how well that went.)

Well, here we are. So much heat and grief and a whole bloody culture war in which real people are getting hurt. Sensible lesbian and gay people - and sensible trans-identified people too - are bring told to pick a side: either you can hang out with mad Terf-hunters and autogynephiles and furries and pink-haired students and childrens drag hour, or you can choose the Daily Mail and Miriam Cates and Posie Parker and the idiots who picket children's drag hour.

I'm so done with politics that doesn't recognise nuance, or balance, or the accommodations that have to be part of a pluralist society. I came out in the early 1980s and I've had plenty of time and cause to get very angry about many things, but I'm also old enough to know that if your politics creates human misery, something is very wrong.

Also bit fed up of straight people telling me that my concerns about homophobia are bollocks.

Quisisana · 16/07/2023 17:46

Thatgirl1981 · 16/07/2023 17:45

It’s not complicated the people who are your biological parents get named
of birth certificates everyone elase adoption certificate or SGO or parental responsibility certificate

But a lesbian couple are not eligible to adopt in Italy so one mother will be cut out.

Thatgirl1981 · 16/07/2023 17:47

I actually think DNA tests should be done before fathers are allowed on birth certificates

kill lots of birds

men would not be able deny children they should be taken responsibility for

all children in the uk would know who their father is

mothers would not be able to lie about who the father is

Signalbox · 16/07/2023 17:47

Slothtoes · 16/07/2023 17:12

SignalBox but married status is relevant. It’s not deception as you would put it, to say on the BC that the husband is the dad, just because he is married to the mum who has given birth. That holds as a non—deception in law even if the whole world and their doctor knows otherwise. I’m not sure what you think happens?

I mean, I guess it depends on how you are defining deception.

Are you assuming that the “Dad” is fully informed of the situation and the child is brought up understanding that they are not genetically linked to their father?

In my mind, in a situation where a woman knows that her spouse is not the biological father to her child she is potentially deceiving her husband, her child and also the actual biological parent of her child. The consequences are potentially devastating. The “Dad” may not want to raise a child that is not biologically his. The child might be devastated when she finds out at 20 that she is unrelated to her father. The biological father may missed out on developing a relationship with his child. Birth Certificates are intended to have the biological parent on them. It’s why you can have a non-bio father removed if it is later found out that they are not the genetically the parent. Afaik you can’t have a bio father removed from a birth certificate.

Quisisana · 16/07/2023 17:48

@Thatgirl1981 I think that would be a very dangerous road to go down.

Jigslaw · 16/07/2023 17:48

Thatgirl1981 · 16/07/2023 17:47

I actually think DNA tests should be done before fathers are allowed on birth certificates

kill lots of birds

men would not be able deny children they should be taken responsibility for

all children in the uk would know who their father is

mothers would not be able to lie about who the father is

It's a bit odd how little governance there is over it really, I wasn't asked for any ID throughout pregnancy or when registering the birth so I probably could have even made up my own details to be honest!

TangledRoots · 16/07/2023 17:49

Jigslaw · 16/07/2023 17:45

I say who carried the child but actually not sure what happens in this case if the fertilised egg is from the other woman.

Yes, this is the crux of the matter. Essentially the woman who gave birth is the mother from a legal and biological process perspective, but the woman who provided the egg is the genetic mother.

This is the thing, people are racing ahead doing novel things to have children in the here and now without really thinking through the implications, ethics or consequences in the long term.

Quisisana · 16/07/2023 17:50

Jigslaw · 16/07/2023 17:48

It's a bit odd how little governance there is over it really, I wasn't asked for any ID throughout pregnancy or when registering the birth so I probably could have even made up my own details to be honest!

I don't think the State really cares who the father of the baby is. It's more important to know who is legally responsible for it.