DM -Italy erases names of gay mothers from birth certs

[DustyLee123]

Can’t do links. Story about removing one mother from the certs where there’s two female names .

Why? Do you think birthing mothers shouldn't be on the birth certificate? Sounds dystopian!

The more I think about it, the more I'm not sure.

There could be an argument for the child's medical records to be the place where their genetic history is recorded.

And then the birth certificate, which is a legal document required by the state, showing who the legal parents are.

In the case of surrogacy, there would need to be an upfront (pre-conception) legal agreement showing the carrying mother conceived as part of surrogacy fully intending the legal parents to not include her.
The 'birthing mother' would have to be present at registration and if not on the certificate provide records showing up front legal agreement on this.

And when registering a child’s birth, the mother takes medical documentation to prove she gestated and gave birth to the baby. Proof of parenthood. What sort of proof would a woman who donated an egg take to register the birth?

And then the birth certificate, which is a legal document required by the state, showing who the legal parents are.
Exactly. The certificate is about registering the child and recognising who is responsible for it. Sure, the child should be able to find out their genetic heritage later on but that's a private matter.

I think the figure is really high the amount of men thought to be raising children who they don’t realise arnt biologically there’s

if they didn’t have to be financially responsible I also think the child has a right to no

If you birth a baby and go through pregnancy, you are a mother too and just as much right to be on the certificate as the one who provided the egg.
What about those who have IVF type procedures then? Using donated eggs?

I agree. The birthing mother influences how genes are expressed in the baby.

In what way?

Yes and as the mother of a lesbian and one who is absolutely not homophobic, I think if you see everyone arguing here that it’s important to have biological parents on a birth certificate as homophobic, then you are paranoid because for most of us, that is not what this is.

That isn’t to say that the legal changes in Italy are not related to homophobia, though if this is about surrogacy , that may be a red herring as well.

But this discussion is about putting the interests of the child first and working out what information is important for the child to have. If you can’t put the child before your own sexuality and relationship, then you are not doing that child justice.

None if she is married/in a relationship with the birth mother. Same as for a heterosexual couple.

Diet for one.

I wasn't ever asked for this, but anyway, of course there are records of egg donation, they don't do it themselves at home!

I was thinking more in the case where a woman donated an egg for another couple.

I don't think she should be registering the birth in that case!

Let’s hope this never comes to pass, or it never comes to pass that we end up in some dystopia where couples have their little incubators at home, or whatever.

As a society we seriously need to push back against all of these novel practices.

How is diet genetically expressed in a baby?

Then who would register the birth? Obviously I believe the mother is the one who gestates and gives birth and whose egg is fertilised. These novel practice of putting one woman’s egg in another’s womb muddies this. For the child, the woman who gestates and gives birth to it is the mother, and since all medical records confirming birth and gestation are currently used to confirm motherhood for registering birth, that shouldn’t be changed to suit people pursuing novel practises, but for future generations tracing ancestry, the genetic mother is going to be the significant one.

As an adopter, I feel as if the term Mother needs to be something like
'the female birth parent or otherwise a legal or genetic female parent'

I think the birth mother! The genetic mother may not even know that her egg has resulted in a baby!

I can see an argument if a child is adopted by a TW with a GRC for that person to be described as a mother.
There would be no argument for a TW who actually fathered a child to be referred to as a mother.

(I guess I am assuming the adoption process would weed out unsuitable TW from adopting and therefore they would be more akin to old fashioned transsexuals than modern late transitioning men.)

The way a baby develops in the womb is largely dependent on the genetic material but it is also influenced by the health of the pregnant woman, what she eats, where she lives etc. This is what is meant by expression.

I think children should have as much info as possible about their genetics AND (ideally) have two adults with legal parental responsibility.

(and I have raised a baby from birth to adulthood as a single mum and the only parent with legal responsibility so absolutely no shade on lone parents intended! We can manage and mitigate the non-ideal situations only if we first acknowledge the best case scenario)

Primary parental responsibility should always be with the mother and by mother I mean ‘woman who grew the baby inside her’ and if she relinquishes that responsibility it should be done carefully and without coercion unless she is proven to be incapable of caring for the child via the usual social services/family courts process.

Women (of any sexual orientation) who take on an active parenting role without giving birth themselves are incredibly important to the children they parent and those women should be able to achieve legal parental responsibility (and fill a ‘mother’ social role) whether they become parents via adoption, marriage/civil partnership or by planning a child with a female partner via donor insemination.

And all children (and future historians/genealogical researchers!) have a right to the primary facts of their birth (the date, place of birth and the woman they came out of!) being accurately recorded

And if we need an extra way to record genetic info (due to gamete donation) and parental responsibility info (because the legal parents are not the biological parents) then we should figure out the best way to do that, because the piecemeal, periodic updates have resulted in something that doesn’t really make much sense.

Clearly defining what we want to be recorded (and why those things should be recorded) will make it obvious if/when objections are made due to prejudice (and thus will prevent the current misunderstandings we tend to get stuck on when discussing these topics).

FWIW I believe that statistically (and anecdotally!) children raised by two women in a committed lesbian
relationship do well by all the usual markers used to determine such things (eg education, health, eventual adult employment etc) and as such there is no logical reason to deny female co parents* legal parental responsibility for babies born to their wives/female partners (and if the child’s genetic info is made available for health reasons and the anon donor’s identity is made available to the child at adulthood the recognised drawbacks associated with not being raised by both biological parents are largely mitigated).

*I haven’t paid much attention to similar stats for gay male parents partly because there isn’t much long term data. Women have been able to have and raise babies with almost no male involvement since the dawn of time (albeit usually battling both state and social disapproval) but historically men raising babies with almost no female involvement has been a much rarer phenomenon (and presumably still is pretty rare as surrogacy is largely a luxury service available only to the very well off).