Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

KJK and the neo-nazis video

533 replies

niandraladesand · 15/07/2023 11:15

Just wondering if anyone here has seen this yet and what you think of it

Kellie-Jay & the Neo-Nazis

Content warning: Transphobia, homophobia, racism, antisemitism, suicide, sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, violence, abortion Videos I mentioned:The Witch Tr...

https://youtu.be/JBy93QX7ysE

OP posts:
Thread gallery
29
ThisTimeIts · 16/07/2023 22:05

He goes after JB, KJK, JKR, Helen Joyce and the Baroness, I guess that means they scare him the most and we should support them more.

AlisonDonut · 16/07/2023 22:07

Personally I consider men who want girls to be given access to abortions on tap to be what we used to call an unreliable narrator.

Who benefits from girls having abortions on tap exactly? And from girls being able to be free from parental influence?

ThisTimeIts · 16/07/2023 22:08

AlisonDonut · 16/07/2023 22:07

Personally I consider men who want girls to be given access to abortions on tap to be what we used to call an unreliable narrator.

Who benefits from girls having abortions on tap exactly? And from girls being able to be free from parental influence?

He was talking about aborting paedophiles pregnancies, the abortion removes the evidence.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/07/2023 22:55

ThisTimeIts · 16/07/2023 22:08

He was talking about aborting paedophiles pregnancies, the abortion removes the evidence.

Do you mean he's in support of keeping parents away from their daughter's medical issues / abortions so that paedophiles can get girls pregnant without their parents knowing? As that's quite a common technique with child abusers - taking girls they're abusing to health clinics for contraception / abortion without parental consent.

BlessedKali · 16/07/2023 22:55

whenever i read threads like this I cant help but imagine that its written by either Jane C Jones or Jeni Harvey frothing at the lips desperately trying to convince somebody, ANYBODY that KJK is a nazi.

i might be wrong, and it might not be them..

PorcelinaV · 17/07/2023 01:12

Helleofabore · 16/07/2023 21:10

Oh... of course. Here is the 'carrying guns' thing.

"Anyway the next problem I have with Keane's stated motivations for her activism is her claim to be protecting women's spaces. Keane says she's motivated to stop people she calls men from going into women's spaces like toilets and locker rooms and she also claims to be concerned about women's shortlists for rewards women's sports grants for women and things like that.
The first issue I have with this position is that Keane has repeatedly advocated for men to go into women's spaces. Most notably here she's argued armed men who agree with her to go into women's toilets including trying to enter School toilets."

Well, here is the transcript for that video:

"...and men? for once, I'm talking to you. I'm talking about you Dads who maybe 'carry' I think that's something that you say? I'm so down with the American lingo! Maybe you carry, maybe you don't. Maybe you consider yourself a protector of women. Maybe you're that sort of man. Maybe you have a daughter, or a Mother, or a wife. Maybe you have a sister. Maybe you just have some friends. Maybe you just think that women are human and you don't need any absolute connection with them to feel compelled to protect us."

"I think you should start using Women's toilets, men. Because you have every right to self identify. Clearly; don't do it and upset women and girls that are already in there, but just make a point of doing it. And maybe make the women feel ok about you doing it. If, you know, if you come out and you frighten someone. But it's about time you started using Women's toilets and saying that you identify as a woman, if stopped. And I think that's how you're gonna have to... that's one of the many ways that you are going to have to combat the insanity of self-ID Even if it's not called self-ID, that's pretty much what you have, now, in the United States. And that's how you men are gonna help."

It is yet another extreme bad faith interpretation that was actually started by the extreme trans activists, let's remember that.

Now, do I agree with her calling for men to use the women's toilets. No. But I can see what she is trying to achieve here.

And it is NOT for man with guns to specifically enter women's toilets.... with their guns!

It is making the point about those men who seek to protect their family members by carrying guns as one way they do that, can choose to simply use the same tactic of ‘self-ID’ to enter the female toilets and not only show society how ridiculous self-ID is, but to go in with their families because now no male can be kept out.

Do I agree that any male over 8 enters a female toilet? No. And her call to action that males do this was not appropriate. But it is important to be honest about what was said in context.

"Maybe you carry, maybe you don't."

Or can people not read the 'maybe you don't'.

But, hey. Don't let the context get in the way of a misrepresentation to vilify someone.

The video argument is that KJK is obviously a hypocrite and doesn't really care about the issue of single sex spaces.

I would say that is an obvious logical blunder by "Shaun", and it's simply not a real case of hypocrisy.

It's kind of like saying, "you don't really care about kidnapping because you believe in locking up kidnappers". It's a special case to try to fight it. You can't use that as evidence that someone doesn't care about the issue.

I would also mention, that I don't think that if you can find some degree of personal hypocrisy that this automatically means that someone isn't sincere. Sometimes they may not be sincere. Sometimes people are just complex and they can be a little hypocritical.

Also it's fairly trivial whether KJK is sincere on the issue, compared to the more important question of whether it's "correct" to want to protect single sex spaces.

Bosky · 17/07/2023 05:07

Mega copy'n'paste follows . . .

Gender-Critical Anarchists/Feminists Facebook Group
12 July 2023

https://www.facebook.com/groups/950271879639687/posts/955434889123386

We thank everybody in Gender-Critical Anarchists/Feminists for helpful comments and suggestions, which have assisted us as we have written up what we call “KJK 10-Point 411.”
--

“KJK 10-Point 411”

“Pettiness separates; breadth unites. Let us be broad and big. Let us not overlook vital things because of the bulk of trifles confronting us.”
-Emma Goldman, “The Tragedy of Woman’s Emancipation,” ‘Anarchism and Other Essays’

We among the Gender-Critical Anarchists/Feminists issue this statement in support of Kellie-Jay Keen. Keen’s detractors resemble those who once attacked Emma Goldman, known for her anarchism and influence on decades of women. They traffic in misrepresentation, if not fantasy, without full attention to the facts. In Goldman’s words, in 1908, press coverage for her went along these lines: “True, she does not eat little children, but she does many worse things.” So, too, has Keen been covered in the most exaggerated terms in our time. There is at least one difference from past to present: The liberal press cares less about eating little children—and may as well celebrate it by now. We need to act without pettiness and with breadth on the principles of civil disobedience, free speech, and women’s dignity, against the tyranny of the state and its religions.

The following are ten points discussing objections to Keen, with attention to a gender-critical anarchist feminist position.

1. She does not identify with feminism, which means her women’s rights activism cannot be seen as feminist.

“I’m not a feminist. I am grateful to feminists of the past for the many freedoms I enjoy. But feminism has been taken over by pimps, punters, pro-men pretending to be women, pro-womb rental, anti-child morons. Stop trying to tell me that I should be a feminist.”
-Kellie-Jay Keen (@ThePosieParker), Twitter, July 8, 2023 https://twitter.com/theposieparker/status/1677574265711869953

“Kellie-Jay Keen is fighting for the literal dictionary definition for all women. She is risking her life to give women a place to speak out. We have been pushed back to such a place that I’m not going to get in this woman’s way, and I’m not going to spend effort to worry about what she calls herself. She is a very smart and extremely brave woman, and she is fighting for all of us. That is really unique. Any chance I get, I’ll provide interference to those attempting to stop or deter her.”
-Nikki Craft, Facebook, July 8, 2023

“Many of the lies shared about me were started by women who call themselves feminists.”
-Kellie-Jay Keen (@StandingforXX), Twitter, May 14, 2021 https://twitter.com/standingforxx/status/1393340725014765574

In her statements, Keen has expressed that her work is “women’s rights activism,” not “feminism.” Many have taken her rejection of the label “feminist” to be “antifeminism,” which does not make sense. Whatever its form, women’s rights activism creates needed social change in favor of women and girls. Above, we see that Keen’s rationale for dissociating from feminism has to do with its co-optation post-Second Wave. She does not say that women should not have rights and, in fact, has been pro-choice—in line with her prior left-aligned politics.

Apart from women’s rights activism, Keen has utilized the term “femalism” to refer to activism by and for women. The distinction is that, to reference Goldman, this movement would foreground breadth rather than pettiness. Everyday women need to feel like they have an investment in their rights as women. Keen is right in her criticism that what has been called “feminism” has left behind working women, especially mothers. Her ambivalence toward feminism makes sense.

Other women now regarded as feminist in their work have felt ambivalent about the label of “feminist.” Though now called a feminist pioneer, Virginia Woolf had mixed feelings about identification with feminism in her time. Arguably, Woolf had far less of a good reason to oppose identifying with feminism than Keen. Her earliest suggested title for ‘Three Guineas’ was ‘Men Are Like That,’ but she discarded it as “too patently feminist,” unlikely to be taken seriously. For Woolf, it had to do with the perception of her as a writer, especially within male-dominated literacy circles. She was concerned with the repercussions of how she would look to others, who could simply dismiss her writing altogether. By contrast, Keen’s refusal has to do with the modern colonization of feminism by prostitution, surrogacy, and transgenderism. These circumstances were not so in Woolf’s time and remain distinct to late twentieth-century and early twenty-first century social movements. This colonization has been facilitated through the eclipse of sex by “gender identity,” the rise of pornography into a global empire, and the more totalizing commodification of the female body in an unprecedented fashion.

2. She has been dismissed as a rabid right-wing woman, à la Phyllis Schlafly and Anita Bryant.

“She was a die-hard leftie for Labour. She is as angry as U.S. lefties (real ones, traditionally for unions and a social safety net) are at the Democrats for abandoning women. She is politically homeless, as many of us are. She is not ‘radical right-wing.’ She cares - more than almost anyone I know - about women.”
-Marian Rutigliano, Facebook, July 7, 2023

“This lie [being funded by the Heritage Foundation], along with many others, was started by so-called ‘left-wing feminists.’ I’ve never had a penny from the Heritage Foundation or worked with them.”
-Kellie-Jay Keen (@StandingforXX), August 1, 2021
https://twitter.com/standingforxx/status/1421761570779115523

For years, Keen had been quite liberal, to the left, even being a model “trans ally” in critiquing radical feminists for excluding trans-identified men in the early 2010s. If she were cut from the same cloth as either Schlafly or Bryant, among devout right-wing women, then would she have ever been a “trans ally” of any sort? Many liberals, even many on the left, share a very similar experience of converting from “gender-affirming” to gender-critical and “TERF.” Keen is no exception to many with a similar trajectory from ally to critic—and even abolitionist. Various times, she has described herself as “politically homeless,” finding neither left-wing nor right-wing applicable.

To the claim that Keen has been “exclusionary” toward some women, particularly lesbians, we must consider that she has supported lesbian rights advocacy. Arguments presenting her as “classist,” “racist,” and “homophobic” have been more diversionary than factual. For Keen, women’s rights must be for all women regardless of their class, race, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, and politics. In this way, her understanding corresponds with that of Andrea Dworkin, as seen in ‘Right-wing Women,’ what Dworkin terms “sex-class consciousness.” Keen’s emphasis on women’s rights activism, the phrase she prefers over feminism, functions in the interests of women as a sex class. Keen has appeared on right-leaning platforms to express criticism of men violating women’s boundaries. Unfortunately, platforms and presses that lean to the right have been virtually the only ones reporting critically on transgenderism and allowing her a voice to the masses.

Standing for Women, Twitter, October 28, 2021, https://twitter.com/standingforxx/status/1453698632297897985.

Posie Parker, “Lesbians Are Under Attack from Predatory Men,” ‘The Spectator,’ October 29, 2021
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/lesbians-are-under-attack-from-predatory-men

Posie Parker, “Fear and Loathing in New Zealand,” ‘The Spectator,’ April 1, 2023
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/fear-and-loathing-in-new-zealand

3. I heard that she used to be a “trans ally.”

Many of those now critical of transgenderism, especially from the left, used to be what one may call a “trans ally.” It is not generally acknowledged, due to the suppression of reality, but it is true. Those in support of transgenderism would rather pretend those critical of them are uninformed bigots rather than former allies. Learning about the social and medical transitioning of children and young people creates the critics. Men’s colonization of women, especially lesbians, creates even more critics among women.

4. She takes right-wing money.

There is much talk about Keen receiving vast amounts of right-wing money, allegedly making tons of money from activism—without evidence to substantiate the claims made. A plane ticket being paid for and having hotel accommodations provided for is not making a living on right-wing money. By contrast, as explored by Jennifer Bilek, politically liberal entities have bankrolled transgenderism with millions and billions of dollars. If capitalist enterprise is a problem for the critic, then Keen is not the Moloch here. A Marxist would look toward the industries, namely the profitable apparatus behind “gender-affirming care,” not a couple of expenses covered for an individual woman. Talk about “right-wing money,” even alleged profiteering on activism, easily drifts into the realm of conspiracy theory. Critics on the left refuse to apply even remotely equivalent scrutiny to the enormous capital being generated in the alienation of synthetic sex identities and the commodified body.

Jennifer Bilek, “The Billionaire Family Pushing Synthetic Sex Identities (SSI),” ‘Tablet,’ June 14, 2022, https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/billionaire-family-pushing-synthetic-sex-identities-ssi-pritzkers

5. She allows herself to be interviewed on right-wing media.

A common objection has been Keen’s willing appearance in right-wing media. Seldom does this point of view acknowledge that, if she did not appear there, then she would appear nowhere. Left-wing media platforms have not given space to critics of transgenderism.

6. She is hierarchical, profiteering, and exploitative.

Women who become leaders usually experience more criticism than men for exhibiting the basic qualities of leadership. Keen’s events platform other women than herself. She makes space for women and girls to speak and expresses gratitude for those who share. The idea that activism should never raise funds to support activists is what kills activism. Believing that activism should be the work of the impoverished and have no funding behind it has no basis in reality. Not even Marx operated without funding and support, but leftist male activists like him have not been called exploitative on this basis. The vow of poverty typically expected of modern activists destroys activism and makes social change impossible.

7. She is white, middle-class, straight, married, and has children.

“There is no real feminism that does not have at its heart the tempering discipline of sex- class consciousness: knowing that women share a common condition as a class, like it or not.”
-Andrea Dworkin, ‘Right-wing Women’

Emmeline Pankhurst was white, middle-class, straight, married, and had children, and her women’s rights activism - and that of her daughters - changed the world for women. Keen’s work may be compared to that of Pankhurst in consciousness-raising for women. Why are we pretending that a woman cannot work for women if she is white, middle- class, straight, married, and has children? Various women have expressed that mothers can feel left behind in the modern feminist movement, and it does not seem hard to see why. Keen’s activism connects to the woman with children, “the great unpaid laborer of the world,” who has felt alienated from modern feminist activism. Mothers have an evident investment in the improvement of society not only for themselves but also for their children. Simultaneously, we have much of what labels itself “feminism” devoutly believing that heterosexual males can be lesbian feminists.

In the history of the women’s movement, mothers from the middle class have been involved. Apart from Pankhurst, one may think of Elizabeth Cady Stanton. Neither was working-class, but each contributed to women’s rights in essential ways. Both women understood that women share a common condition as a sex class. Of course, in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, society did not pretend that men could be women and negate women’s rights on that basis. Men possessed women in marriage, as property, not by identity, which now also makes womankind into men’s property. The battlefield is similar but stupider.

8. She is only supported by a “personality cult.”

Support for Keen has been dismissed as being entirely a “personality cult,” which can be applied to most support for any figure or ideology. Marx is an example of one whose support can be characterized as such. In a letter to W. Blos, dated November 10, 1877, Marx himself spoke against the formation of a “personality cult” around him and Engels. It did not matter that he and Engels did not care “a straw for popularity,” showing “aversion to any personality cult.” Dismissal of Keen on this basis neglects the content of her women’s rights activism and, ironically, emphasizes popularity over political substance.

Likeability being seen as negative, by default, simply does not make sense. To a great extent, the activist who seeks to make social change must appeal to people and be real, which means human, to the masses. Not being likable certainly has its limits, even in the absence of a “personality cult.” Must activists be entirely unrelatable, with no connection to the masses? The idea that activists cannot be likable is as impractical as the vow of poverty expected of them.

Why must likability itself be a liability? As one woman asked, “How can you not love her? She’s fabulous and hilarious.” “Personality cult” aside, it really can be hard to resist a “mouthy Gemini,” as another woman most fittingly put it.

9. She does not have a penis.

After all, Keen is an adult human female, penis not included.

10. She is generally awful in other respects, unlikeable, apart from not having a penis.

Women do have a hard time being likable in defending women’s dignity. Women’s rights need an unsentimental defense. Of course, if Keen is generally awful, so very unlikeable, then so much for a “personality cult.”

Signed,

Donovan Cleckley, Nikki Craft, and the Gender-Critical Anarchists/Feminists
--

Relevant to the discussion of Keen’s activism, we include below the text of another piece that we did at the end of March. It covers similar ground to the points made above. We had used Keen’s nom de guerre Posie Parker.

--

“On the Vilification Strategies Against Posie Parker”

Nikki Craft, with Donovan Cleckley
March 26, 2023

Regarding the claims about Posie Parker being supported by the right wing, it matters to clarify that I have always distanced myself from the right. It has been so since the 1970s- 1980s, dating back to the earliest times in my activist work. For instance, I founded Citizens for Media Responsibility Without Law (CMRL), distinguished from the Moral Majority’s pro-censorship Citizens for Decency Through Law (CDL). I take issue with the broader guilt-by-association approach generally utilized against Parker and other women. Now, as to her comments that have been regarded as racist and Islamophobic, these can be disagreed with. Male violence cuts across race and class, an essential point in the radical feminist analysis. However, I do not think guilt by association and disagreement with her past comments mean needing to cast this woman to the side. It seems perfectly reasonable to support a woman for the way she calls other women to courage. While the critiques matter, I am not interested in debating my personal support for Parker—not on my page, or anywhere else for that matter, at this time.

I do not support her due to any popularity contest or “personality cult”; quite the contrary, I’m not like that. I support her from seeing how she has shown incredible courage against this new terrorism. Politically, the guilt-by-association approach has been detrimental to women, as seen in the astonishing lack of left-wing and liberal support for the Anti- Pornography Ordinance during the 1980s. In that case, political divisions clearly served to divide women against their own interests to the service of an industry that feeds on their bodies.

“I don’t ask women to pass a political litmus test to talk to me,” Dworkin says, interviewed in 1985. She understood these issues require attempts at deeper understanding—even, not surprisingly, cross-partisan coalitions. To those alleging her involvement with the right, Dworkin has replied:

“I think it’s been terrifically distorted. There hasn’t been any institutional support from the right wing, no money, no political support, and no intervention in litigation. On the other hand, when Jerry Falwell starts saying there’s real harm in pornography, then that is valuable to me. When the so-called liberals who claim to care about torture in prison in right-wing countries bring themselves to understand that a woman being tortured for entertainment is also a violation of women’s rights, I’ll be very grateful.”

Based on the above comment, Dworkin has been interpreted to support Falwell’s politics - extending, of course, to the Moral Majority. However, she simply commented that he, though contrasting radical feminists, at least recognized a harm the vast majority of left-wing people, including self-described “feminist” women, outright refused to see. For years, feminists critical of prostitution, pornography, surrogacy, and transgenderism have been accused of receiving a payout in right-wing money (largely without evidence - or even quantifying these allegedly huge amounts of money).

Meanwhile, liberals and the broader left have not been held accountable for bankrolling entire movements distinctively antagonistic to women’s rights. The push to commodify women in these various industries has obviously not been a grassroots effort. Yet individual women objecting to such industries have become subject to a criticism, to the point of distortion, that simply does not exist toward these industries.

Again, it seems worth considering how many of the claims against Parker have been “terrifically distorted,” as they were toward Dworkin in her life - and even in her death. This comparison is the main reason I have even brought up Andrea to make clear I already know very well about the bullying (including trashing from other women), the lies, and the purity tests used against women. These vilification strategies have been aimed at suppressing women’s speech. Parker has exposed the censorship in the media, especially now in Australia, against the radical woman hating coming from the left and liberals, which is commendable work for any woman. Indeed, speech over censorship used to be a priority on the left as well, in principle - until it got into bed with the pharmaceutical industry and its cult.

Transgenderism’s money has facilitated the capture of many groups, including former women’s rights and gay rights organizations now acting in opposition to their principles. If there is a desire for no woman to align with the right, then what are the critics doing to hold the left responsible for the widespread violation of women’s rights, the rampant child abuse becoming institutionalized, and the outrageous grooming happening in plain sight? Groups like the Actual Gender-Critical Left police women’s language, namely framing any even remotely critical discussion of grooming as “homophobic.” So-called “actual leftists” make apologies for pedophiles. They prefer attacking women for seeming “right-wing,” as opposed to confronting male violence and child sexual abuse. They have been far more focused on and effective in trashing Parker and other women than even tackling the industry. It matters to ask why. If they - and, yes, you - align with the left, then they - and, yes, you - become accountable by your own thinking and politics.

Women and men can express ideas in opposition on my personal page, but I would prefer it be limited. I cannot see it as useful to go into long arguments, usually being unproductive, that create no resolution and drive more divisions among women. At any point, if you do not feel you are an ally to me, or that you can no longer support my work or political positions, then it is very evident that you will need to leave my page.

My Facebook page should be a place where I do not have to deal with constant disputes that exhaust too much of my time and energy. It should be a place where I can exist and share my ideas without having my feminist credentials and thoughts constantly surveilled and policed. Additional distractions are especially unhelpful, especially now as I am working on two archival projects with my friend Donovan: the first being on Andrea Dworkin, the second being my own.

Please feel free to share these thoughts in appropriate places where these discussions on Parker are taking place. Women and men alike can benefit from thinking critically about women’s speech and its suppression. It matters to consider how liberals and, unfortunately, the left have most radically betrayed women.

And object to vilification strategies.

Nikki Craft
http://www.nostatusquo.com/

Director of Women Who Are Women WWAW
https://www.womenwhoarewomen.com/

The Andrea Dworkin Archival Project ADAP
https://www.facebook.com/AndreaDworkinArchivalProject/

The Turf War Zone
https://www.theturfwarzone.com/

KJK and the neo-nazis video
DiabolicalFinial · 17/07/2023 07:15

Thank you, @Bosky.

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 07:54

PorcelinaV · 17/07/2023 01:12

The video argument is that KJK is obviously a hypocrite and doesn't really care about the issue of single sex spaces.

I would say that is an obvious logical blunder by "Shaun", and it's simply not a real case of hypocrisy.

It's kind of like saying, "you don't really care about kidnapping because you believe in locking up kidnappers". It's a special case to try to fight it. You can't use that as evidence that someone doesn't care about the issue.

I would also mention, that I don't think that if you can find some degree of personal hypocrisy that this automatically means that someone isn't sincere. Sometimes they may not be sincere. Sometimes people are just complex and they can be a little hypocritical.

Also it's fairly trivial whether KJK is sincere on the issue, compared to the more important question of whether it's "correct" to want to protect single sex spaces.

Yes Porcelina, the statement that she doesn’t really care about single sex spaces was so ridiculous that it defies intelligent thought. And all based in on a bad faith interpretation.

It is continuous. I was in yet another cyclical discussion about this very transcript only very recently.

In the end, one poster was down to ‘but why did she mention GUNS?’ and ‘particularly mentioning guns in a culture where mass shootings occur regularly’. One other poster did the whole ‘I am as GC as they come, but ….’ And then had said that KJK had literally said to shoot or kill trans people in that video (before I posted the transcript)
and they never once acknowledged that they lied about it.

Kellie Jay does her videos unscripted. I think it is a mistake sometimes as she sometimes doesn’t finish her thoughts off before moving on. She will also say stuff that can be misrepresented. On the other hand, some of her statements are very straight to the point with fine accuracy.

However, the main thing is that she is out there and she is doing something. What is also remarkable is that there are overwhelmingly many women finding their ability to articulate their own views because she does this. No one has to agree with 100% of what she says. That would certainly be a cult like following and not healthy for any movement.

This constant ‘KJK is running a grift, it's tragic to see so many of you fall for it’ is never followed up with anything but misrepresentations of what she has said or what she does. And often the poster making the accusations uses so much hyperbole themselves while accusing KJK falsely and generally tries to portray other women who defend KJK as being vulnerable to manipulation.

No, we are not in a cult, we don’t always agree with KJK, some people who rarely agree with her methods still can see the falsity of these accusations, but we are also not about to allow false accusations to continue.

Something that this YouTuber even picked up on, when Julie Bindel defended against the Nazi accusations.

It is called being a grown up and seeking the truth.

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 07:55

Another commonality i have seen lately is the use of dehumanisation such as ‘you lot’.

I know you lot just don't want to hear it” for example. I have noticed this recently in numerous posts about how FWR is no longer a place where feminists have intelligent discussions or about how horrific the board is with its constant transphobia.

It is a pattern that says ‘I don’t agree with you, so I am going to dehumanise you so I can vilify you’.

AutumnCrow · 17/07/2023 10:08

NecessaryScene · 16/07/2023 21:07

"But Kelly J Keen says 'no! parents need to take back control of their children". This ends up being a restriction on particular abortions because miners wouldn't be able to get abortions without parental consent or permission.

I'm not a fan of this Shaun chap's views on child labour practices.

I came for the Bible, stayed for the Dickens

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 11:17

I am still going through this. I mean the hyperbole that this person indulges in is incredible.

”I want to make clear it's what I think Keen considers to be the nice way of erasing trans people which is her ultimate political goal. Keane wants all trans people either in the closet or in prison or de-transitioned or dead but really just vanished from society at large being the main point.”

So, not only do they use misrepresentations, which is dishonest. They use a great deal of hyperbole. However, they also use polarised thinking as per this quote above.

This is classic polarised and catastrophic cognitive dissonance. It is also absolutist.

I am sure that if you already had made up your mind about someone, you will be nodding along with this. But it is so much waffle and it never shows any balanced thinking.

I mean, this is a person that thinks that she is abhorrent for discriminating against trans people. The individual says "so Keane thinks discrimination against trans people is okay". After Kellie Jay discusses a male using the female changing room in Sheffield NHS in the tribunal case.

So tell us @niandraladesand @Lettuces, should male people use an open communal changing space where women are undressing? Yes or no?

Should women have their own sport's categories where no male's compete? Yes or no?

Because if you even have one doubt, this YouTube counts YOU as discriminating against trans people too. So, if we were to use this person's tactics, you are just as bad as Julie Bindel, Joanne Rowling and Kellie Jay Keen.

That is what this person has done the entire way through.

The video immediately goes into her saying that she doesn't think that a male who demands that they are accepted as a woman should not be in 'some situations'. It is right there in the transcript.

"'I'm happy to say that in some situations um being exclusive or discriminatory is absolutely um 100 fine by me'. So that's Keen saying trans people shouldn't be able to work in positions of authority there."

She says 'some' and this person takes the polarised and absolutist tactic of 'all'. Again. This is dishonest.

Here is another one straight after.

"Anyway next up I'd like to talk about Lucy Meadows who was a transgender teacher who died by suicide in 2013 after being subjected to a campaign of harassment by the UK press, here's Keen talking about that case. "Way back there was a teacher who pretended to be female and they were um outed in the Press. Pretty sure everyone who'd ever met them knew that they weren't a female um, and I think they took their own lives. I think people were really upset that a man pretended to be a woman and taught their primary school kids and I'm just gonna say quite right too""

It is incredibly dishonest to portray this clipping of the video to be showing KJK saying 'quite right too' as being for anything other than people being 'really upset that a man pretended to be a woman and taught their primary school kids'. Yet, this YouTuber has done just that. Twisted it to be her saying 'quite right too' about suicide.

They then go into how she has stated 'several times that she wants trans people to die'. Again that catastrophising by using misrepresentations.

Yes, be disappointed about her tweets about suicide in 2016 & 2017. They were callous. I think she has probably learned a lot in the meantime and wouldn't post those again. If she did, then I am also sure that many people would push back hard on that.

However, it is really important that people focus on the truth. And that clipped video was a dishonest tactic.

And yes, she discusses suicide rates as being misinformation. Because there is evidence that shows that it is misinformation that has been weaponised by groups for many reasons.

So, if you were really posting this here for 'discussion' @niandraladesand , how about you provide some of the evidence that this youtuber then presented to back up their assertions about suicide rates.

What is eye openingly hypocritical is that in one section this YouTuber accuses KJK of scrolling back on twitter profiles to find something to comment on with people she is in an argument with, while nearly all these tweets that they have resurfaced are from 2016 & 2017.

And yet, posters are here saying how great this video was. And yet, not one of those posters has made any comment on any section of the video..... just more hypocrisy.

I might come back to this some time. But it is so slow going because nearly every point that this person uses is twisted somehow, and usually a misrepresentation. If someone did a such a crap video as this on a trans person, I would be going to go and check what they were saying because it would be sounding loud alarm bells in my head that there so was much dishonesty being presented as truth.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/07/2023 14:57

Bosky · Today 05:07
Mega copy'n'paste follows . . .

Thank you very much.

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 15:00

Right, I am doing another stint.

”I want to make clear it's what I think Keen considers to be the nice way of erasing trans people. Which is her ultimate political goal. Keane wants all trans people either in the closet or in prison or de-transitioned or dead, but really just vanished from society at large being the main point. Keen is absolutely an eliminationist when it comes to trans people. Her Victory condition is no more trans people and I'd like to talk about a couple of effects this sort of obsessive hate can have."

"The first is how over time it comes to supersede all previously held beliefs and principles, for example on the issue of abortion Keen claims to be pro-choice and as I stated earlier, I think she genuinely believes that she is. And she probably doesn't like abortion being outlawed, she doesn't like abused mine as being forced to carry unsafe pregnancies, she doesn't like women dying needlessly on operating tables, she doesn't like it, but she doesn't hate it. She doesn't hate it like she hates Tran people. Her hatred is simply stronger, more animating of a force than all of her previously held principles. This is how someone who was once proudly pro-choice ends up allying with anti-abortion activists. How someone who was once eager to call out the church is covering up of child abuse scandals ends up allying with the religious right and so on. The moment they get in the way of the hate campaign all those previously held principles get thrown out the window”

So.... again ... this YouTuber is continuing with a previous assertion. Previously they have asserted: "Keane often states that she is pro-choice and I think she probably legitimately believes that she is but that's just inside her own head."

So.... let us look at this. This misogynst male is asserting that a woman who doesn't seem to follow what this YouTuber believes women SHOULD believe about women and their bodies, doesn't support what she says she supports. Because .... this YouTuber has drawn conclusions of 'guilt by association' and used polarised thinking that anyone who is not 'left wing' and believing what they, the YouTuber believes they should believe is automatically far right and anti-abortion.

While telling us that a group of people should be believed for what THEY say about themselves, yet this woman cannot possibly be believed because this YouTuber has declared her to be false. Even though this Youtuber admits clearly that KJK has indeed said that she is pro-choice.

Let that sink in for a bit. If you honestly believed that this video was excellent, this is what you are supporting. This kind of hypocrisy has been all the way through this video.

So, again. This YouTuber has declared that KJK 'hates' trans people. They have repeated this often. I don't believe that I have seen KJK state that. This is a conclusion drawn from a narrow and prejudiced perspective. And again, if you believe this, link us up to the evidence. Because this snipped evidence on this video is blatant in its misrepresentation.

For the above paragraphs to be true, you would have to be a person who believes that everyone that you interact with has to fit your political alignment. That political panels must ONLY contain people who agree on all political issues. That no one who has even a slightly different perspective to politics can be listened to at all or worked with. That everyone who disagrees with you, must hate a group in society that they don't believe should have access to another group's protections and rights.

And if you believe this, then I don't know how you think the world works on a day to day basis. Because that is tribalism, that is simply lacking in any critical thinking and it is completely unrealistic.

The hypocrisy and the dishonesty really is very blatant by now.

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 15:26

So the video drifted through to the 'Big Lie' next.

That was a speaker at a let women speak event in Newcastle there quoting Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf. Now it should be noted here that when Hitler wrote about the concept of the big lie he didn't say, ’ we the Nazis are going to do the big lie to attack Jewish people.’ He claimed that Jewish people were telling a big lie in particular he was claiming that Jewish people were lying about the reasons that Germany lost the first world war. By citing Adolf Hitler's use of the big lie Theory, instead of say anyone else who isn't actually Adolf Hitler's use of the Big Life Theory, the speaker is therefore casting trans people as the Jewish people in her metaphor and her herself and her allies as the Nazis. Which well she said it, not me.

Well, this is the speaker that this YouTuber is referring to.

Let Women Speak - Newcastle - Part 2 time 8.59

https://www.youtube.com/live/vgxjSGeCE4Q

And this is the transcript of her speech.

_

Now, I am going to talk to you about something I have not seen in the press. I am a hypnosis practitioner and have been doing hypnosis for 30 years and helping people to hypnotise others. And I know about language. I know that this is based on something we call the ‘big lie’.

Do you know the ‘big lie’?

The big lie was first described by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf. The big lie is such a big lie that ordinary people like us think, ‘Well, that can’t be a lie. Because I have never tell as big a lie as that.’ We only lie in small ways. The big lie… There is one big lie going on and it is being done by men, in the early part of the 20th century.

It began when they had an erotic fantasy. And they decided they were going to sell us the ‘big lie’. And what is the big lie? The big lie is that that ‘transwomen are women’.

But they are not, are they? They are men, and we know that.
So let me just spend a couple of minutes telling you a bit how this hypnosis works.

Repetition. Repetition is hypnotic. The more you repeat it, the more you believe it. The more you hear ‘transwomen are women’, the more a shadow of that big lie, lies in your head.

I am sure that I am not alone in that I am sat at home and thinking, maybe there is, you know, maybe they do have female thought patterns. No! The effing don’t! All the thought patterns I have, are my thought patterns and I have as much DNA that is female in my toenail that Izzard doesn’t have in any part of him.

So the thing is, you start to believe it. You start to believe it. And if you repeat an idea over and over again, and people start to believe it, and you want them to believe it, that is called affirmation. Affirmation is what hypnotists use to make you believe something. So, ‘be kind’ is an affirmation.

If you are sympathetic to this ideology, this ideology that I call the ‘trans phallus - ey’. If you are sympathetic, then you are affirming. Everytime you call a he who says he is a she, she, you are affirming.

Affirmation makes people believe things. If you repeat it and you repeat it. I hope that I am repeating this enough that you will be in no doubt, no doubt ever, that a man is a man and a woman is a woman.

So how to stop this, what is called ‘gaslighting’, what is called brain washing.
Manage your emotions. Don’t match them. Don’t get sympathetic. Don’t go ‘there there dear’.

Break the chant. Pour cold water over their lies. Do it realistically or do it with your words. Your honest words break people out of compliance. If you are honest, they cannot stay where they are, cos it is all about stake management. We have to manage our emotions.

Refuse to affirm.

And the best thing is laugh. I know that I am not laughing now, but I do laugh a lot.

And I want to just give you one last tip on hypnosis. Don’t ever say to someone, ‘transwomen are not women’. Because our unconscious mind does not think ‘not’. It only thinks it is transwomen, women, transwomen, women. Transwomen, well they are women, aren’t they? They are women! Emotions. Emotions are what caught them. They got caught, not by rational things, but they got caught by emotions. And how are we going to break this is by using emotions that shake them out. So, they can’t find that emotional sympathy ever again.

Thank you.

Discussing a concept such as how a lie that is so inconceivable that normal people cannot believe it is a lie is what she did. And she did it to highlight how society has been influenced to repeat a mantra that males can ever be considered 'women'.

Should this propaganda tool never be discussed because to do so 'invokes' Hitler some how? Will people stop discussing Foucault then? What about mentioning anything that John Money did or said?

I am all for people critiquing what Lisa Morgan said, but let's get to the facts.

Was she 'quoting' or was she pointing out the propaganda tool that she believes has been used? Shall we stop discussing all aspects of communism then as well? Can't discuss the manifesto?
the speaker is therefore casting trans people as the Jewish people in her metaphor and her herself and her allies as the Nazis. Which well she said it, not me.

Can this YouTuber get anymore dishonest? Can this YouTuber even comprehend speeches properly? This speaker did NOT ‘cast herself as a Nazi’. This speaker was clearly discussing how propaganda works.

But hey…. Apparently this YouTuber is excellent according to lettuces. The receipts are in the video says OP @niandraladesand.

Blimey, this video has been a load of crap tactics from start to finish.

Before you continue to YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/live/vgxjSGeCE4Q

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 15:32

I am not going to do any more.

This person has not introduced anything new, and I think that their dishonesty and their hypocrisy and their misogyny is very clear to see. If you are someone who has been convinced by this video, I think it says a great deal about you.

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2023 15:35

I take my hat off to you @Helleofabore for getting so far. I abandoned it under 20 minutes in!

I see there was nothing new in what you watched just the same old recycled shit slinging. Same as it ever was.

AutumnCrow · 17/07/2023 15:40

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2023 15:35

I take my hat off to you @Helleofabore for getting so far. I abandoned it under 20 minutes in!

I see there was nothing new in what you watched just the same old recycled shit slinging. Same as it ever was.

Hats off from me too, @Helleofabore

Justnot · 17/07/2023 15:43

And me - love watching them getting their arses handed to them

going forward we should just post a link to this thread and let it tumbleweed

ArabeIIaScott · 17/07/2023 16:24

"Keane often states that she is pro-choice and I think she probably legitimately believes that she is but that's just inside her own head."

That's actually almost beautiful in it's batshittery. So someone's belief is 'just inside their own head' and that makes it somehow not true? Amazing. Wait til I tell you what trans activists think about sex and gender.

ArabeIIaScott · 17/07/2023 16:28

Helleofabore, this is for you.

KJK and the neo-nazis video
MrsOvertonsWindow · 17/07/2023 16:29

ArabeIIaScott · 17/07/2023 16:24

"Keane often states that she is pro-choice and I think she probably legitimately believes that she is but that's just inside her own head."

That's actually almost beautiful in it's batshittery. So someone's belief is 'just inside their own head' and that makes it somehow not true? Amazing. Wait til I tell you what trans activists think about sex and gender.

👏👏

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 16:31

The hilarious thing was that regular posters to the board were being accused of 'not engaging their brains'. I laughed at that. Very loudly. Because as I said up thread, 'we' have the 'receipts'. We have the fucking transcripts for the things that these supposed intellectuals are using dishonestly.

I mean, I could have gone right back to the research I did when we had an activist who was determined to convince us that the wiki pedia page was all wonderfully investigated and confirmed true. That guy was even going to write to Steigen the supposed 'nazi' that KJK had a selfie taken with to get him to confirm that KJK was far right wing like him and that the random selfie meant something. While telling us that all the speakers at that Norwegian event were also 'far right' when they were pretty much all left wing.

I could also go back to all the accusations from those Actual Feminists and point out how their arguments completely lack symmetry and that what they are accusing her of, they should be also accusing other prominent feminists of but they don't because they approve of the other feminists communicating the same message.

The deceit just goes on and on.

If people want to criticise Kellie Jay Keen, go for it! Use relevant and truthful interpretations of what she says, stop twisting things to be absurd misrepresentations. And also, if you are going to criticise her, tell us what the fuck you are doing that is raising awareness around this issue and the indirect effects that your efforts are having.

Helleofabore · 17/07/2023 16:33

ArabeIIaScott · 17/07/2023 16:24

"Keane often states that she is pro-choice and I think she probably legitimately believes that she is but that's just inside her own head."

That's actually almost beautiful in it's batshittery. So someone's belief is 'just inside their own head' and that makes it somehow not true? Amazing. Wait til I tell you what trans activists think about sex and gender.

Arabella, the fuckwittery is very high in that video. But this really was just one of the hypocritical narratives. It defies belief that any poster would not have picked this up..... I can really only assume that misogyny was at the heart of this hypocritical crap.

ArabeIIaScott · 17/07/2023 16:34

Desperate mud slinging, by the sound of it.

Swipe left for the next trending thread