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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
IncomingTraffic · 12/07/2023 18:58

I actually laughed out loud at how hyperbolic the article is. And the truly ridiculous quotes from the trans civil servant.

This whole ‘trying to deny my existence’ and ‘wants me to be unsafe’ is SUCH a distortion of what a gender critical view is that I’m genuinely hoping the source is not one of the senior civil servants claimed to be terrified.

If so, I suspect that they’re shit at their job because they struggle to understand anything at all beyond their own feelings.

lostmytowel · 12/07/2023 19:02

happydappy2 · 12/07/2023 18:53

This is from SEEN network, they have emailed members the entire draft document for consultation

No. This looks to be a draft policy, which will be out for consultation with several networks. It seems very unlikely that SEEN network would have leaked - and certainly not to this particular journo.

MissPollysFitDolly · 12/07/2023 19:04

JacquelinePot · 12/07/2023 18:29

Can we campaign to repeal the GRA, yet?

We really need to. Repeal it and put an end to this idea of legal sex.

Point 139. The Department acknowledges that some employees believe that a person’s biological sex is immutable.
The Department needs to acknowledge that the immutability of sex is a scientific fact. It's very annoying that they place gender critical views on an equal footing with the religious gender identity ideology.

78. If the employee has a GRC, they are legally entitled to access toilet facilities in their acquired gender.
So the Civil Service won't apply the Equality Act exceptions to keep their toilets single sex. How little they care for their female staff.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 12/07/2023 19:04

And as for the claim that this would make it difficult for people who enjoy role playing as members of the opposite sex to work for the civil service, if you’re so freaking out there that you expect other people to pretend you’ve changed sex and are ‘terrified’ if they refuse, then I expect your employer might breathe a sigh of relief if you decided to move on

ResisterRex · 12/07/2023 19:09

This is from SEEN network, they have emailed members the entire draft document for consultation

Good. Because the leak is giving the impression that sanity might have prevailed. Clearly it hasn't.

IncomingTraffic · 12/07/2023 19:10

I agree that it’s problematic that actual science is placed in the ‘beliefs’ category. But gender ideology is treated as a separate and factual category.

Depressing.

KiteofUncertainty · 12/07/2023 19:17

happydappy2 · 12/07/2023 18:21

From the document....
Sex
41. Some people regard sex as a matter of biology only. Others treat the word as interchangeable with gender based on self-identification. For the purpose of this policy, we use the term to refer to the legal concept of sex, which is based either on a person’s sex at birth or the sex which has been “acquired” as a result of obtaining a GRC. On this basis, a person’s sex is either a man (or a male) or a woman (or a female).

So males with a GRC will be lumped in with actual Women-anyone see a potential problem with this? Women exist as a category seperate to men!

Yes, I agree this is problematic.
Males with a GRC are not entitled to use women's facilities under the EA2010 - the provider may consider that keeping them out is a disproportionate measure for the legitimate aim of women's privacy, dignity and safety, but they are not bomb proofed if the effect is discriminatory against women.

The quoted parts of the document seem pretty one-sided in favour of Genderists.

happydappy2 · 12/07/2023 19:26

lostmytowel · 12/07/2023 19:02

No. This looks to be a draft policy, which will be out for consultation with several networks. It seems very unlikely that SEEN network would have leaked - and certainly not to this particular journo.

What I mean is, SEEN are consulting on the draft document, the points I’ve posted here are from the draft doc. I don’t know who leaked to the journo. I’m just amazed the government have made such grave errors on this draft doc, such as suggesting people without a GRC are treated the same as those that have a GRC. Lumping in males with a GRC with Women as one category and stating that trans people must be referred to in the manner that they wish (compelled speech) I don’t think that as a policy it is fit for purpose. Plus gender critical beliefs are more than just a belief, they are factual reality….people cannot change sex.

PurpleGreenandWhiteAreTheNewPrimaryColours · 12/07/2023 19:31

TheGreatATuin · 12/07/2023 16:28

Incredibly hyperbolic article, then I saw it was by Ben Hunte so that tracks 🙄
I see that staff are reportedly 'terrified' by the guidelines. I don't believe that any sane person could possibly be 'terrified' at women being allowed their own toilets.
And imagine being terrified at: "employees can hold different opinions and beliefs in the workplace” or “reasoned and rational debate.”
What utter, utter nonsense.

Well, they are terrified of the truth. And with good reason.

happydappy2 · 12/07/2023 19:54

Glad to see Maya is all over this!

Tallisker · 12/07/2023 21:02

I might have submitted some views on this doc today...

Boiledbeetle · 12/07/2023 21:12

Tallisker · 12/07/2023 21:02

I might have submitted some views on this doc today...

Leslie Nielsen Reaction GIF

Yeah they are just printing them off now

lechiffre55 · 12/07/2023 21:12

I don't understand how a Gender Recognition Cetificate has any effect on single sex spaces if what is does is what it says on the tin, recognises a gender change. Gender and sex are different, surely you would need a SRC Sex Recognition Certificate not a GRC to effect any sex based rights enshrined in law?

LlynTegid · 12/07/2023 21:15

Don't hold your hopes up. This is only a draft, may have been leaked deliberately to get it changed.

BettyFilous · 12/07/2023 21:21

LlynTegid · 12/07/2023 21:15

Don't hold your hopes up. This is only a draft, may have been leaked deliberately to get it changed.

The fact it even exists would have been unthinkable a few years ago. The dial is definitely shifting.

Froodwithatowel · 12/07/2023 21:27

AmuseBish · 12/07/2023 16:59

Should other employees object to this, you should explain that using the correct facilities is the individual's legal right and forms an important part of gender transition.**

I thought it was purely a need to pee and not anything more significant? Have they been dishonest about this?

And whether or not someone has a piece of paper with an untruth on it, the fact stands that the person is male, and some female employees may not be able to use a mixed sex facility.

It is not always and only about the inclusion of the very special transitioner. Other people have an equal right to inclusion, and the transitioner has the same responsibility to support and facilitate others as they expect for themselves.

This is a step in the right direction, but it does not afford women or other protected characteristics equality of access and inclusion. It is still a two tier system in which women are lesser and subordinated to the wishes and feelings of men.

Tallisker · 12/07/2023 21:37

Boiled** 🤣

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