Lucy Spraggan 'When I was a boy'

[NancyDrawed]

A post promoting Lucy Spraggan's book appeared in my Facebook feed and I found it really interesting that she chose to post the following:

There’s a chapter in my book called ‘When I Was a Little Boy’ which talks about, well, when I was a little boy.
I was born biologically female but from a young age I chose to be called Max and lived - completely authentically - as a boy.
I talk about in all the ways that my family nurtured my identity and in all the ways that freedom to be myself, freedom to be Max, helped me to grow.
It was only recently that I discovered how much Max is still a part of me and I talk about that too.
Anyway, I wanted you to meet Max. So here’s some pics of me then

I wonder whether she will go all out and say she is glad, as a happy adult lesbian, that her family let her just work it all out for herself.

One of the comments:

'I love this. However, in todays society, Lucy’s parents would have been encouraged to give her hormones and other drugs to change her body from female to male which DOES have irreparable side effects. I agree with allowing children to be who they feel comfortable being, I don’t agree with giving them drugs and medication to make a life changing decision that they just aren’t equipped to make at such a young age. I too was “all boy” when I was younger but thank god I wasn’t given the opportunity to change my gender, I love being a woman and back then I had no concept of what being a man OR woman meant in the world. I just wanted to play football, and only boys were allowed to do that. Hence why I cut my hair short and tried to pass myself off as a boy for years as a kid. I had no concept though of what I was doing. Nature took its course and thank god it did, I love being a woman and I love all my womanly parts. Children need to be supported in whatever they want to do, but making life changing decisions is something they should decide as an adult.'

I made a comment several pages ago to one poster that I felt criticising her given her rape and her other documented issues was in bad taste and crass. That's it. If you read super carefully i said the OP wasnt the issue. I have no issue with the discussion of living as a boy or of Lucy in general. I do however have an issue with criticising her on her choices, given what she's been through not just as revealed recently but in general.

People are not criticising her, they are just pointing out the irony in someone who desisted from identifying as the opposite sex at puberty (as most children do) donating to Mermaids, who deny that this happens and do their best to prevent it happening by pushing all children like this towards puberty blockers as early as possible, which prevents desistance.

🙄

I'd never even heard of her. I don't watch reality tv shows. My comment was solely based on reading the linked articles.

I asked a perfectly reasonable question because I didn’t understand

you can read into it whatever you like

Same

Donating to Mermaids is, as others have said, not a neutral act, as Mermaids is not a neutral organisation. Perhaps on paper it still looks like it supports kids and their families who are questioning their gender identity, but in fact it seems to be pushing a transition narrative, not supporting a questioing stance but affirming as soon as possible, and supporting medical intervention.

This is the sex and gender board, and it is relevant to bring it up in light of the writer discussing how she presented herself a boy when she was young. It's not related to the sexual assault - I think it's reasonable to discuss it.

https://metro.co.uk/2023/07/19/lucy-spraggan-gender-reassigment-surgery-max-19155795/amp/

Oh dear. I won't say more but it doesn't show her in a good light. Where have all Lucy's friends gone?

Can a man know what it is to be a man? I have no idea how even a single one of the other billions of men feel.

Usually we feel emotions. Happy. Sad. Angry. Excited. What is this feeling 'man'?

Well , first of all it shows up the myths and untruths in the original posts about how she was quite happy to socially transition. I wont use the word lies.

Can I ask why it shows her in a bad light and also your completely irrelevant comment about her friends? I am genuinely confused by that.

I'm not engaging with you anymore @WildUnchartedWaters

A perfectly reasonable question you're unable to answer.
Fair enough.

I have read the first two chapters of Lucy's book (I preordered it months ago on Kindle and it appeared the other day).

Lucy suffered early years trauma with a violent father, and her mother had that to deal with as well as her own trauma from being forcibly separated from her unmarried mother and raised by uncaring adoptive parents with again domestic violence.

Lucy is very clear that she sees her younger self as a Trans Child and that (obviously) being a Trans Child is a Real Thing. It's safe to say she believes that people have (can have?) a Gender Essence (for want of a better word) that is independent of their body and that it is very hard to live in opposition to your Gender Essence.

She is 100% be kind, so far hasn't mentioned any possible drawbacks to treating everybody as the sex they claim to be rather than the one that comes with their body. Nor did she mention any drawbacks of the hypothetical situation that (if the medical pathway was available) she had Testosterone and a double mastectomy.

She's made her case quite clearly about compassion for people born with Gender Essence that is out of whack with the sex of their body.

It's clear enough to me that she would have been medicalised with puberty-blockers and surgery by age 20 if she had been born 12 years later. Rather than being pretty hench and healthy at age 31, she could have already been looking at a shopping list of health problems and more to come.

I hope all the above is fair comment (I'm obviously not going to C+P huge bits of her book)

I think you're right @OldCrone

Lucy didn't have ROGD, she was already socially living as a boy from the age of 5 or so.

She was dealing with a traumatic past, (and her unwanted puberty/womanhood), with various maladaptive coping strategies including death-wish levels of alcohol and cocaine abuse.

Whether hormone treatment and surgery would have helped in her life, well I have some doubts on that, but it's always hypothetical on an individual basis.

The one thing that definitely did help Lucy, which sadly was only available to her later in life when she could afford to pay for it outside the NHS, was extensive talking therapy, over a number of years.

You might want to do some research into Lucy's substance abuse and mental health in general.

Using the fact Lucy didn't commit suicide as a gotcha of well growing out of it is right is totally simplistic.

I also dont think she is 100 percent be kind. It's not surprising that in her book about her life and her views that she wouldnt argue 'the other side'
Of course she wouldnt. If a GC adult wrote a book they wouldn't feel the need to include trans views would they?

If Lucy chooses to support mermaids and/or has her own personal views she is allowed them.

I know I was massively defensive of her earlier in the thread as I am a long term follower of her and think shes incredible (the trans debate aside) but I just dont agree that she should have to follow the narrative she never claimed to in the first place.

I've asked for my previous post to be deleted because I agree with you that mentioning suicide in this context is inappropriate.

But I'll make the same point again differently.

Children do largely grow out of identifying as the opposite sex. For young children who want to be the opposite sex in early childhood (like Lucy) this usually happens during puberty. There is also evidence that the more a child is 'affirmed', and particularly if they are medicated with puberty blockers, the more likely they are to persist.

Most of those who are left to grow out of this at puberty become reconciled with their sexed bodies as adults, as Lucy seems to have done. So leaving these children alone to grow out of this does seem to be the best strategy.

Oh good -I was just about to say I didnt report that! Despite the events of earlier in the thread that's a rare move for me.

I agree with you in principle, but I think it's a simplistic viewpoint. Yes, Lucy is still alive, and living as a gay woman, but her troubles have been documented, leaving aside the sexual assault, with her identity, her substance abuse, her marriage.

Now I was quite young when she was on XF although I do remember her but I've followed her more in recent years and if you look at her now compared to then the difference is staggering.

Now I understand that the argument is made in terms of not medicating children and letting nature take its course. I do get that. And I understand that many GC posters see the discussions around suicide as manipulative.

But Lucy is not still here because she didnt transition. That is a false narrative. We have absolutely no way of knowing what her (his) life would have looked like if she (he) was living as a man. He may well be happier than Lucy is.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is I feel people get stuck on the point ahout medication and mermaids and all of that, but they then create a narrative that isnt necessarily true. Time and time again I see posts on here ahout people who want to de transition, or the trans women who havent transitioned.

So people cant really win on that one.

If they are transitioning they are damaging their bodies and it shouldnt be happening. If they dont, but choose to live as the opposite sex (please nobody come at me with but what does that MEAN because that details everytime) - in this instance I mean dressing as a woman then we dont like that either.

So what we are proposing is people just do nothing about it, that makes us happy. Completely ignoring the very real people who have transitioned who live perfectly happy lives.

It's fine to not agree with the medicine. Not my viewpoint, but it's fine. But what you cant so is go see! X didnt transition and thats a good thing when really you know nothing ahout the impact that had.

Now I understand that the argument is made in terms of not medicating children and letting nature take its course. I do get that. And I understand that many GC posters see the discussions around suicide as manipulative.

But Lucy is not still here because she didnt transition. That is a false narrative. We have absolutely no way of knowing what her (his) life would have looked like if she (he) was living as a man. He may well be happier than Lucy is.

If Lucy wants to transition she could do that now, as an adult. Not transitioning as a child doesn't prevent anyone from doing so as an adult.

There is absolutely no benefit to girls/women in early transition. The arguments for early transition in boys (to avoid the irreversible changes at puberty due to testosterone) don't apply to girls (but I don't agree with this being done to boys either). There is absolutely no harm in letting girls go through puberty and then decide if they want to change their bodies as adults.

Leave children alone. Transsexualism is for adults.

But that is easily said by someone who is not in that position, I feel.

I'm not saying she does. I also dont think the fact she hasnt now as an adult means that she was socially detransitioned.

I'm surprised anyone does it with the way that people talk about trans in the modern day.

unfortunately I did read that she wished puberty blockers etc had been available when she was younger, then she could have transitioned- she laments that she wasn't able to do so.
So frustrating that she's not put two and two together but there we are- a middle class, youngish woman in the music industry- it was ever thus.

Patronising that you think your view is 'putting 2 and 2 together' shes allowed her own view.

Ans as a 31 year old woman who left the music industry in her early 20s because she was sexually assaulted by the people who should have protected her, went away and wrote all her own music and was signed with Simon Cowell on her terms, your post not only spiteful and snobby but also entirely non factual.

unfortunately I did read that she wished puberty blockers etc had been available when she was younger, then she could have transitioned- she laments that she wasn't able to do so.

I wonder if she knows about all the health issues associated with girls who take puberty blockers and women who take testosterone?

I'd never heard of her before this thread, but if she's the sort of person who teenage girls and young women might view as a role model, it's irresponsible to suggest to them that taking these drugs is a positive thing to do.

She doesn't.

She said shed wished shed done it.

Those are two completely different things.

I also think we are in a bizarre world where we think we are entitled to the lives of someone in the public eye. I would say that Lucy's prime audience is more middle aged people.

If you dont know anything about her, I would genuinely suggest looking her up. Shes a beautiful songwriter.

Dear You (TW suicide) , Tea and Toast Sober and Mountains are all ones I would suggest.

Not one of her songs mentions sex or drugs or has some of the more colourful lyrics as many 'idol' pop stars do. In fact, sober documents how she wishes shed not got into that world.

I cant think of many pop artists seen as role models who can say the same.

I've followed Lucy for a long time and I had no idea until the book that she experienced that. Shes been relatively private up until now.

And even with that, I cant think of many teenagers who will go 'ah, il transition now cause Lucy Spraggan wanted to'. The role model thing is a fallacy.

A heck of a lot of young women look up to Lucy, for good reasons. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed to hear her views on this topic but she's speaking truthfully about her life experience (as she generally or always does). I will read the rest of her book, as I get time. I'm interested in her perspective and hearing it in her words.