“If you see a TERF, punch them in the fucking face!” Speech at Trans Pride London 8 July 2023

[IwantToRetire]

Sarah Jane Baker, on the Trans Pride stage, saying

“If you see a TERF, punch them in the fucking face!”

to a cheering crowd :)

https://twitter.com/unpopulargenz/status/1677790606561628160

NB to MNHQ the video shows this being said. It is not just an allegation being shared.

It does seem the Met & London Trans Pride both need to read the EHRC’s helpful guide to Freedom of Expression. Because atm they’re banging on about “freedom of speech!” with no acknowledgement that this is a qualified freedom; & one of the very obvious examples given in the guidance is: Article 10 allows restrictions to be placed on freedom of expression for any of the following specific purposes…the prevention of disorder or crime (for instance to prohibit incitement to violence). Nobody, however “full of rage” they are, has the right to call for violence.

It’s quite clear London Trans Pride don’t see any issues with VAWG: in addition to the above, they allowed the speech to go unmitigated at the time; & they posted it on their Instagram to boost its reach - potentially telling a global audience to punch TERFs. Their non-apology is incredibly poorly constructed - I’m not sure if that’s deliberate, to try to confuse people into thinking there was real condemnation; or if their output is routinely of a poor standard. (I realise it says “a spokesperson said” but they will have been giving a prepared statement/responding in writing.)

Not that I ever had much to add, but I’ve stayed away from this board for a while as so much of this stuff was doing my head in.

I popped back on because to check out posts as I’d seen the great news re AB getting additional costs (the maximum that could be awarded).

Only to find this thread, amongst others, which makes me despair yet again. So many public institutions seem captured, how on earth can a sensible solution be reached?

The video upthread of the guy filming in Bloomsbury. I applaud what he did, but even that shows how things are - can you imagine a woman feeling safe enough to do that?

As an aside, very much appreciate people adding screenshots from Twitter - not having an account means it’s obviously impossible to see now what is being posted on there.

And this is where #nodebate and #bekind has taken us. How frightening. TRAs are now not only entitled to their own version of reality, but apparently to their own unqualified right of Freedom of Expression- including special rights to incite violence against women and girls- plus they get public cheering and applause for that incitement.

This is taking us back to the hate speech debate isn’t it? Sorry to complain about anything but the aggressor at a time like this, but when eg the Law Commission argued for a new hate crime law against misogyny, several posters on here said it was dangerous nonsense.

Yet it seems without something like that law, women are getting openly threatened by special men and still the police do nothing.
Would having a new legal offence (if Parliament would agree to it, which is another matter) not be a better route to forcing the police to protect women from hate directed at them simply because they are women and say so publicly? That’s all it takes to be a TERF isn’t it, just defining who is a woman? Would a hate crime if misogyny not be more of a deterrent to violent men like this for using their ‘righteous rage’ for advocating for violence against women?

TRAs it turns out know perfectly well who a woman is, and what pronouns to use when they want to punch ‘her’ in the face. Turns out every last one of us actually knows what a man or woman is, in the end.

When ever I see or come across the pack like mentality of social justice warriors ( which is quite often), the term 'Hitler Youth' often comes to mind. It is the indoctrination and accompanying moral righteousness which does it.

Is there never any end to your dismissal of violence against women?

Really?

Are you a person still who thinks the childish ‘I don’t condone …. But …..’ is not still dismissing violence?

When will the message deep through. You have again dismissed violence against women. This time under the guise, not ‘peronally’ aimed and that you wrongly believe the word feminist to also include men like Graham Lineham. So because YOU don’t understand that the noun version of feminist is for female people, you use your warped understanding to dismiss the violence against women.

Stop dismissing violence against women!

How very hypocritical. I am sure they can see the hypocrisy… surely they can see it….

Using “Nazi” to refer to anyone who isn’t/wasn’t a Nazi is frankly downright offensive to the millions of people who were murdered by the Nazis. Using it to refer to someone whose point of view you disagree with is beyond tasteless.

It comes off that they know that they can't step over a certain line, but they are basically sending a message to everyone, "yeah punch terfs is OK".

Righteous anger? An ex-convict with a violent record wants to incite people to punch women in the face and that's righteous anger?

How about righteous anger towards the people who taught Sarah Jane it wasn't OK to be a gay man? The sexual abuse in prison? The politicians who cut services in prison? (I've read about SJB saying they wanted to be in a male prison because they liked plenty of sex with men. If all of that was consensual I will eat my hat. It is if course possible that they also perpetrated rape themselves).

But no. The anger is purely towards women who won't 'accept' that SJB is a woman. That's the reeeeeeeel issue.

I don’t think they will stop. On every thread they dismiss violence against women and girls.

Are they male or female out of interest, has that been established

Only some people are allowed to express righteous anger.

Women on Mumsnet can't express righteous anger.

Violent ex criminals can express instructions to punch women in public and they'll get the support of the Met Police and Labour MPs.

TBH, there will always be unhinged violent men (sadly). The real problems are:

1. the cheering crowd,
2. the Met declining to act

and 3. the Labour MP openly trying to minimise VAWG.

I agree.

’punch them/her in the face’ is not ‘righteous anger’. It’s just being a violent thug.

It’s amazing how many people simply will not straightforwardly condemn a convicted violent criminal inciting violence at an event. It’s not a hard one, but people are determined to dissemble and distract and evade having to say ‘this is not OK’.

There is something very wrong when people won’t challenge what’s said because it was said by someone wrapped in a trans flag. And to a cheering crowd.

Justin Webb on Radio 4 Today just now made sure this story was included in the overview of the morning papers.

We’re heading towards NZ territory where a women is punched in the face and the crowd, police and politicians say that’s fine she deserved it.

It’s predictable and will get worse after next GE if Labour get in

Which they are on track to do.

How do women prepare for this? It's going to get worse, isn't it?

I don’t know. It feels unstoppable and will be bad.

I suppose keeping mn as a place to talk about it for a start because Labour could try to limit speech

We also have some media here who cover it regularly whereas NZ doesn’t really, and people get cancelled if they do podcasts etc

Maybe do those protests if we find it unbearable to get more coverage

The BBC discreetly mention 'rage' but not the violent threat.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ce9gdmenl5zo

"How do women prepare for this? It's going to get worse, isn't it?"

Absolutely. The transactivists who regularly plop on here to defend violent, sexually abusive or verbally abusive actions demonstrate quite clearly that some people consider themselves to be outside the laws of the land and the social contract. That's incredibly dangerous - especially for women who are expected to share spaces where they're vulnerable with these unhinged men.
With the Police & those who should be standing up for law & order (MPs etc) muzzled by these groups, the consequences for women and those who speak out are terrifying

I am in direct contact with the PP who raised the complaint to the Met. They have asked me to post this message:

"I have now left the thread owing to concerns for personal safety and the matter is now under police investigation. It seems sensible not to impact that in any way so I hope you will understand.

The Met have now apologised for their initial 'hasty' response and are opening an investigation, both of which I welcome. I would encourage others to raise a crime report as well to add more 'witnesses' to the case".

@DennisNoelKavanaghOffTwitter

When ever I see or come across the pack like mentality of social justice warriors ( which is quite often), the term 'Hitler Youth' often comes to mind. It is the indoctrination and accompanying moral righteousness which does it.

I've seen people call them "Twitler Youth" in fact.

Thank you. Hope the PP is okay and the police take this seriously. FFS

I am in direct contact with the PP who raised the complaint to the Met. They have asked me to post this message:

"I have now left the thread owing to concerns for personal safety and the matter is now under police investigation. It seems sensible not to impact that in any way so I hope you will understand.

The Met have now apologised for their initial 'hasty' response and are opening an investigation, both of which I welcome. I would encourage others to raise a crime report as well to add more 'witnesses' to the case".

Thank you.

Standard makes no mention of the violent threat, but manages to wax on about unrelated protests against drag queens.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/trans-pride-2023-trafalgar-square-lgbtq-rights-human-b1093107.html

Thank you

Met trying to close the barn door again.