Is it offensive to say "straight" or "neurotypical"?

[MerlinsLostMarbles]

I've been trying to understand why the gender critical movement are saying "cis" is offensive and still not quite getting it since it just means "not trans" (cis and trans are prefixes with opposite meanings).

From what I can gather the argument given by the gender critical movement is that the "default" is not-trans, therefore there shouldn't need to be a word for the "default", just as we don't have a specific word for someone who doesn't collect stamps (an example I've seen given).

But we have "straight" and "heterosexual" to refer to people who aren't homo/bi-sexual, we also have "neurotypical" to refer to people with typical neurological development or functioning. You could say these are also "defaults".

So why is "cisgender" an apparent "offensive slur" when straight and neurotypical aren't?

Incidentally, my understanding is that the word "straight" was originally coined by the gay community-meaning kind of dull, unadventurous, straight-laced. Not a slur, exactly, but a bit disparaging to heterosexual people. In the same vein as "vanilla". I'm resisting googling because I have other things to do today and I suspect it will be a rabbit hole!

"There's lesbians on this thread telling you it's a slur and now you want examples!"

I'm sorry-I missed that. Will scroll.

Straight is offensive when used to label other people because people throw it around making assumptions about people when they don't know if they're actually bi. So it's biphobic, which is a form of homophobia. Many people assume I'm straight when I'm not and it is really offensive.

Cis is offensive when used to label other people because people throw it around making assumptions about people when they don't know. All it says is "transmen/transwomen are so bloody obvious that if I haven't picked you out as one, I'll label you as cis" and what could be more rude than that to anyone who is trans or not trans?

Neurotypical denotes a group of people who do not struggle with things that people with developmental differences struggle with. It's really ablist to glue the TRA movement to the neurodiverse community, just like when BLM was co-opted and bastardised into "black trans lives matter" it was really offensive (by way of racism) too.

Do you see the pattern here? Stop labelling people with shit they never asked for and that's probably wrong anyway and stop co-opting other movements because yours is such a failure !

HTH.

When someone describes to me the characteristics of the gender identity that matches ‘woman’, the characteristics that ‘cis women’ and ‘trans women’ share, then I’ll be able to decide if I’m cis

but they never do give those characteristics (because it would be a list of sexist stereotypes and then the jig would be up)

The existence of people who are same sex attracted doesn't rest on my adherence or not to a quasi religious belief system. I don't believe in gender identity ideology therefore if I was to accept "cis" as simply "non trans" that would mean a "trans woman" was a female person who identifies as a man. Which obviously exist. But that isn't what it means.

I've genuinely never seen people argue that straight is an offensive term before, so find this an interesting concept

I wouldn't use cis to describe myself as I think it's unecessary made up gender nonsense. Woman works perefctly fine.

If being drawn into discussion on whyI think it's a load of crap, I'd ask what do trans women and cis women have in common that makes them all women? (answer is nothing because some of them are men.)
And how are butch lesbians cis? (answer they're nt they're women, but if you use cis you'd have to think they were Trans.)

However, I wouldn't make a big deal about being offended being called cis, or try to stop people using it, I don't think I have a right to conrol how people talk about me or what they say.

I think its' an own goal all this heightened offense at cis: it plays into the idea that we all have a right not to be offended.

Better to say: you can call me cis and I can think you're an idiot, and I'll call you a man and you can think I'm mean, but we don't get to dictate to each other.

Yeah, I can deal with cis-ing. It’s a helpful indicator that the person saying it is a fucking idiot

I can’t deal with it in official communications and documents

I don’t want institutions that we all rely on to look or behave like fucking idiots

So I did a bit of digging into the etymology of straight. It first appeared in the gay community in the middle of the last century as a slur on previous members of the community who had adopted a non-gay lifestyle. E.g. "I haven't seen Alfie around for a while. Has he gone straight?"
This usage evolved into an othering term for heterosexuals who were referred to as straights. Leakage into the general population occurred during the 1970s where straight became a slang word for heterosexual without any slur.

The really obvious difference between the dichotomies straight/gay and neurotypical/neurodivergent on the one hand and cis/trans on the other hand is that only the cis/trans dichotomy is being used to dissolve an existing dichotomy (male/female).
In addition, only the cis/trans dichotomy is being used to expand a category of relatively oppressed people to include members of the oppressor group.

The correct comparator wouldn't be (eg) the straight/gay dichotomy but (eg) a dichotomy between 'cis' gay people (ie people who really are same-sex attracted and those who 'identify' as gay despite being opposite-sex attracted.

Better to say: you can call me cis and I can think you're an idiot, and I'll call you a man and you can think I'm mean, but we don't get to dictate to each other.

Agree. And it wasn't the feminists on mumsnet who wanted words banned.

I'm thinking this comparison through:

Could you have some (hypothetical fringe and obnoxious) people who don't beleive homsosexuality exists and gays are just behaving in warped ways but its' not really a sexual orientaion.

If you were gay and one of these fringe weird people refsued to say you were gay and referred to you as straight (becuase they think everyone is) I think most gay people would think they were weird obnoxious people who they don't want to socialise with and would avoid them whenever possible.

What they proably wouldn't do is claim: if you don't beleive in homosexulaity I feel like i don't exist and I'm going to kill myself.

They'd go: I know I'm gay you weirdo. Bye.

If you worked with the homosexual denying weirdo you'd want to ensure they could never discriminate aginst you for being gay despite thier beliefs, e.g. exclude you from events or promotions, but you couoldn't object to them going to a weird gay denying group in the evening.

Being called Cisgender is annoying, I am a woman. I do not think I am a woman in a woman's body; I am just a woman.

Transgender is an anomaly it means something went wrong. somewhere. In utero? At birth? Later?

Doesn't mean we have to be unkind to transpeople and make fun of them etc

I agree, no workplace should be engaged in implemnting beeef systems at work.

I'm glad the homophobic abuse I've experienced could be of service to you.

Interesting to think about thanks for this.

My take is: Straight or heterosexual is a subset of sexual orientation. Gay lesbian bisexuals and heterosexual. We all have a sexual orientation and it's not a choice.

NT is a subset of neurodiversity. Neurotypical, autistic, ADHD, dyspraxia etc. we all have a brain and again not a choice.

The subsets of sex are male or female. Man or woman. Binary. We all have a sex

Cis is offensive because we are not sub sets of our own sex. Cis refers to gender. Not everyone has a gender. Not everyone believes in gender. And many of us see gender as sexist oppressive stereotypes and suppressing freedom of variation within the sex's. It's also homophobic by transing kids who are just gay.

Calling someone heterosexual or NT does not fuck with their identity like telling them they are cis. It's just facts.

Also being gay or ND doesn't require others to be uncomfortable to please that individual. It doesn't allow grown men with a fetish into changing rooms and toilets with young girls.

Crimes are not being recorded as NT when it was an autistic. Or straight when it's a ND. I don't know if we have stats on criminal behaviour in these groups but I would guess if there is a pattern it's not as extreme as the difference we see between men and women criminal behaviour.

We don't have NT individuals identifying into the ND categories taking prizes and support from ND. Maybe a few naughty kids are getting ND label when perhaps they shouldn't but the accommodations they receive do not negatively impact on others or take from others. A ND kid who would impact others can't even get into special school because the impact on others is always considered and is a reason to refuse a school place for that child. For that matter a ND kid negatively affecting the education of NT kids is removed from mainstream school. This is not the case with cis/trans the impact on the 'default' "cis" is disregard.

Cis is like a label that means people can dismiss your feeling and experience while fucking with your identity at the same time.

@JillyQ So is "heterosexual" the only acceptable word?

Cisgender could be offensive if you don’t accept the whole concept of gender because it is based on a bunch of repressive stereotypes that you reject.

Yes, and someone has explained how it apparently originally started out to disparage against people who are heterosexual by the gay community themselves, I can't get offended at someone who is gay referring to me as straight as it doesn't discriminate against me if they do.
Whereas bent I can totally see that as a slur, it is and I would never use it in RL, just have on this thread for this discussion as that's what we're discussing.
Never thought of someone who is gay or lesbian being upset at people being called straight before.

Transgender is an anomaly it means something went wrong. somewhere. In utero? At birth? Later?

It's not a given that they have any sort of medical condition.

Does anyone have a good comparison for how compelled speech of another belief system could but shouldn't be forced on people in the workplace or schools?

I've been trying to think of an exmaple to use as a counterpoint and don't have a good one.

I've been thinking along the lines of: I'm a Christain and at Easter everyone in the office has to say 'Christ has risen' otherwise I'll kill myself.

So I'm forcing everyone to say something in ine with a belief systen they don't subscribe to.

But that doesn't quite work because it's easy to just avoid saying Christ is risen.

But they pronoun stuff gets tested because you have to speak about and to people and address them in some way, but if you use preffered pronouns you are colluding with the idea that pronouns are geneder based when I think they are sexed based.

Also pronuns aren't a belief or a fact, they are social convention. How do you justify sticking to your own chosen social convention?

Any suggestions for arguing these points appreciated!

Better to say: you can call me cis and I can think you're an idiot, and I'll call you a man and you can think I'm mean, but we don't get to dictate to each other.

Yes, I agree - my main issue is with institutions using it, as its language from inside a specific belief system that (1) many of us don't subscribe to and (2) disproportionately disadvantages women and girls.

If the NHS were going round calling people heathens and sinners I'd feel the same - it's just incredibly inappropriate.

@MerlinsLostMarbles

Something for you to ponder.

As I do not identify as the "gender" that matches my "assigned" sex at birth.
The definition that TRAs have for people that are trans.

Doesn't that mean that I am in fact trans?
And labelling me "cis" is literal violence and offensive?

Or do you not see the absolute stupidity of the definitions provided by the TRA movement?

To add another strand, I physically cannot bring myself to say the word "queer". I was involved in the aftermath of too much appalling verbal and physical violence around it to be able to. Obviously, people have a perfect right to use it-but I can't.