Is it offensive to say "straight" or "neurotypical"?

[MerlinsLostMarbles]

I've been trying to understand why the gender critical movement are saying "cis" is offensive and still not quite getting it since it just means "not trans" (cis and trans are prefixes with opposite meanings).

From what I can gather the argument given by the gender critical movement is that the "default" is not-trans, therefore there shouldn't need to be a word for the "default", just as we don't have a specific word for someone who doesn't collect stamps (an example I've seen given).

But we have "straight" and "heterosexual" to refer to people who aren't homo/bi-sexual, we also have "neurotypical" to refer to people with typical neurological development or functioning. You could say these are also "defaults".

So why is "cisgender" an apparent "offensive slur" when straight and neurotypical aren't?

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This!

The most common explanation of the word cisgender is that it means you identify with the sex you were born (as opposed to transgender which means you identify as the opposite sex to the one you were "assigned at birth")

So for me, I am a woman because of biology. I don't identify as a woman. So I find it offensive to be called cisgender.

Straight as a descriptor for sexuality ONLY came about because of the slur "bent" for homosexuality.

Therefore in its origins is the direct relationship with a slur.

Yep. As a gay person, I know no-one nowadays is probably thinking "look at those benders over there" when they describe themselves as straight. And I get that most heterosexual people wouldn't see it as related to gay people being "bent", because if they're not homophobic and also haven't been on the receiving end of homophobia, they're probably unlikely to have been deeply hurt by being called "bent" or "queer" in the past like many gay people have.

I'm used to people using the word straight nowadays and I get there's been some reclaiming around "straight" and "queer". However, I personally still see "straight" used by heterosexual people as pulling rank and suggesting that I'm not straight and therefore bent and it still makes me feel "less than" when I hear people describe themselves as straight.

I don't think this is particularly relevant to a discussion on "cis" as that's a separate issue and the two aren't comparable, but I just wanted to point out that a handful of gay people saying they're fine with hearing the term "straight" to refer to heterosexuals doesn't mean we're all ok with it or that it doesn't have a nastier connotation for some gay people.

Atheist has been around a long time! Probably as a better expression than "heathen".

And neurotypical is better than non-disabled. Rather than going round saying your child is "normal" or not disabled, you just say they are neurotypical.

As for the cis thing, other people have explained. Sex and gender are not the same thing. And the use of cis is trying to make women a subset of themselves.

And of course cis isn't homophobic. There are three problems here:

T is nothing to do with LGB

Sex and gender are not the same

Gender stereotyping is damaging.

@MerlinsLostMarbles
If you can define cis woman without using the words gender and trans then we have a start point for a discussion.

OP, someone quoted the dictionary definition of "cisgender" yesterday on another thread, so I'll repost that and my reply here:

"Denoting or relating to a person whose gender identity corresponds with the sex registered for them at birth"

Assuming that gender identity is an inner sense of gender that can only be defined by the individual in question, and assuming that the person in question doesn't believe gender identity as a concept, then they aren't included in this definition.

Great challenge. I doubt @MerlinsLostMarbles is up to it, but lets see.

One day I would love for there to be zero replies to questions like this. Because we don’t half waste a fuck of a lot of time and energy on here explaining things to people who you get the sense love tying up our time and energy. And who aren’t going to be swayed by our arguments. Who go round in ever-increasing circles. I’m so bored by it. Not all posters obvs but y’know…

Rather than comparing it to calling people straight, it's probably closer to gay people referring to heterosexual people as breeders.

It's not exactly like that though, as heterosexual people do breed (as do homosexual people) whereas not all non-trans people are accurately categorised as cisgender,

I do believe that cisgender people exist within gender identity thinking, because if you believe that everyone has a gender identity and that yours matches your biological sex, then it makes sense that you might refer to yourself as cisgender as your own gender identity.

However, aside from being disrespectful, it's contrary to the central tenet of the concept of gender identity (that only an individual can determine their own gender identity) to ascribe the gender identity of cisgender to everyone who says they're not trans.

Ascribing the gender identity of cisgender to others without their consent is also akin to being religious and referring to all non-believers as heathens or sinners. They're only sinners in terms of your belief system, so it would be rude and discriminatory to go around criticising people for not agreeing with your religion. And it's the same with the word "cisgender".

I agree - the first thing I do when someone starts a thread like this is go and check the news just in case there's something important we're missing!

That said, I've also learned a lot myself from these kinds of threads over the years, so while I'm conscious of not putting too much energy into these things, while a poster appears to be engaging in good faith and is being civilised, it can sometimes be quite helpful to discuss.

Because I am a woman. I'm not a "label" anything. The use of cis is trying to make women a subset of themselves, which is insane.

ALSO, it's a slur because the TRANS ACTIVISTS themselves have MADE it a slur.

You only have to see the thousands of social media videos of them saying horrible, vile, nasty, derogatory things about people who can't help that they are the way they are aka just a woman, just a man etc, with no labels. How much they hate "vile fucking cis people" etc. It's everywhere. So they not only came up with a label to force people to become a subset of themselves, they then proceeded to use that very label in horrible derogatory ways, therefore changing the underlying meaning of the word and making it become a slur.

It's happened many times over the course of history, for example with my own country's people. In WW2 we were called shortened versions of our home country, which because slur words against us as the negative feelings of Ally nations towards us and the hatred of us grew. It's still deemed as slurs now.

This.

If you are saying there are 2 types of women they would have to be

a) females who identify as female and b) females who identify as male

So you could have ciswomen (females who identify as female) and transwomen (females who identify as male)

But females who identify as male want to be called transmen, not transwomen.

The logic, as usual, is absent.

Words have meaning. You can't just take them to mean something else and insist everyone else does too.

Aside from the excellent arguments already outlined here, I don't even think the use of terms like "cisgender", "AFAB", "birthing person" etc are helpful to trans people.

Most people, consciously or not, just see these terms as interchangeable with "male" and "female". Hence you get people trying to use the terms "correctly" and ending up using phrases like "men and birthing people". All they understand is "you must say birthing people instead of women" but they still have the knowledge that a "birthing person" is a female. You're apparently now getting flatmate ads saying things like "AFAB only" assuming that means they're not "transphobic". My favourite was an article about bras that was trying to be very right-on by saying "Bras are usually worn by AFAB people" - arguably transphobic and where the word "women" would actually have done perfectly well.

And that's the thing - no matter what weird language is posited everyone knows what male and female is and will invariably reveal that at some point. So what's the point of creating all this aggravation?

Trans activism seems to have long ago lost any connection with improving the actual lives of trans people. Why is there never any self-examination?

The word cis us used to pretend that transwomen are female.

We have enough words.

Woman and transman.
Man and transwoman.

This makes sense - and thank you WallaceinAnderland for explaining how this works logically.

Obviously accepting "cis" here would still require a belief in gender identity, but it's very helpful to have our attention drawn to the obfuscation around the contrasting definitions of transwomen and ciswoman which are frequently presented as two sides of the same coin.

I knew people had an issue stepping outside of their own belief system to appreciate the issues with "cis", but I hadn't appreciated the sleight of hand on this one.

If cis had a real world actual reliable definition, you could never use it about someone else, only about yourself.

When you call me a cis woman you are making massive assumptions about me. You simply can't know my gender identity aligns with my sex unless you ask me.

And if you ask me, I'll tell you I am not a cis woman. I have many personality traits that don't line up with my sex. Equally my husband isn't cis. I only know one woman, well, who would be described as cis.

Quite.

Ah, I actually appreciate them giving us frequent opportunity to re-present the core GC arguments so frequently. If they just slouched off the first or second time they were shown to be all catechism and appeal to emotion with no consistent and coherent rational arguements, fewer people would get to read the core GC points and be amazed just how quickly the Emperor's feted new wardrobe is becomes flimsy nothings once someone gives you permission to properly look at it.

This way keeps the topics active, and I for one thank Merbs and their like for their support.

Straight isn't used as a way to other and discriminate against people just because theyre attracted to the opposite sex though

Aside from the excellent arguments already outlined here, I don't even think the use of terms like "cisgender", "AFAB", "birthing person" etc are helpful to trans people.

This is also true. Many transgender people dislike the term 'cis' because they feel it differentiates them from real women just as much as the word trans does. I know that IW has twice claimed to be a cis woman, so desperate is IW to be seen as a real woman.

It can actually be quite distressing for transwomen to have yet another word that doesn't belong to them and a group they can never be part of.

How is it homophobic to be called straight?

I'll just agree to disagree as I don't take offence at being called straight. Just like I don't at c*s.