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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
RoyalCorgi · 08/07/2023 15:24

I think one of the tactics of TRAs is to minimise the impact of men performing in women's sports by saying there are bigger things to worry about before posting a random series of other issues within sports generally.

This is true of TRA arguments about anything - why do you care about trans women in women's prisons when women in prison have other, worse problems such as being assaulted by male prison officers? Why do you care about women being assaulted by trans women in changing rooms when most cases of assault happen in the home? And so on and so on - the endless deflection.

Other top tactics:

Why are you so obsessed with trans people's genitalia? It's creepy.

You mustn't criticise trans ideology because that will lead to violence against trans people.

If you refuse to validate trans people's identity, they will kill themselves.

On and on it goes, a never-ending stream of irrationality, emotional blackmail, straw man-ism, ad hominem, all in response to sensible people pointing out that humans can't change sex.

Pebstk · 08/07/2023 15:31

Men have treated women appallingly in sport - fact.

The writer’s totally illogical conclusion is then that men who ‘become’ or say they are women should be accepted/protected/compete unfairly against women.

How can that be?

SqueakyDinosaur · 08/07/2023 15:36

Jonathan Liew at the Independent wrote an equally offensive article in 2019:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/caster-semenya-news-gender-martina-navratilova-trans-cas-jonathan-liew-column-a8792861.html#comments-area

The bit that made me so angry in 2019 that I still remember the article in 2023 is:

". Let’s say the floodgates do open. Let’s say transgender athletes pour into women’s sport, and let’s say, despite the flimsy and poorly-understood relationship between testosterone and elite performance, they dominate everything they touch. They sweep up Grand Slam tennis titles and cycling world championships. They monopolise the Olympics. They fill our football and cricket and netball teams. Why would that be bad? Really? Imagine the power of a trans child or teenager seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be inspiring."

The prejudice of those who argue against trans, intersex & DSD athletes

This week, DSD athlete Caster Semenya has fought the decision to set a limit on allowable testosterone levels for athletes. And, for some, this is the final stroke of the Doomsday Clock, the opening of the floodgates

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/caster-semenya-news-gender-martina-navratilova-trans-cas-jonathan-liew-column-a8792861.html#comments-area

FrancescaContini · 08/07/2023 15:38

Wow, Jonathan. Just…wow.

duc748 · 08/07/2023 15:45

Liew writes boringly about sport in the NS. I never liked him, and feel thoroughly vindicated after reading that. What an arsehole. His point is clear: stop moaning, women! Don't you know that there's more important issues in play here than you?

RebelliousCow · 08/07/2023 15:57

"Cishet white men are the sexual predators in sport we must worry about. Not transgender female athletes"

So much confusion.

RebelliousCow · 08/07/2023 16:09

The gender ideologues know they are losing the battle on sport; even in the U.S, and even amongst Democratic voters.

They need sport because once it is recognised that TW remain male and thus retain male advantage, lots of other questions and parallels will start to be drawn. They have to maintain the purity of the vision, if you can convince people on sport, oand over-ride their concern or scepticism, the rest is far easier to achieve.

Third spaces, services and categories have always been the obvious practical way forward - but most activist would rather scratch out their eyes than concede an inch on any of it; for the reason that this is not really about dignity or 'human rights' but about totalitarian ideological imposition.

RebelliousCow · 08/07/2023 16:13

The ideologues also depend on connflating, and combining, issues around race with issues around gender. They need the black democratic vote and so they cynically manipulate it with a focus on solidarity against cishet white supremacy - which is apparently wrapped up, not only with black oppression, but with transphobia.

RebelliousCow · 08/07/2023 16:14

Hence all of the tropes about how single sex spaces and sports are akin to racial segregation and apartheid.

duc748 · 08/07/2023 16:25

Absolutely. It is so cynical. Your point about them "needing" sport is a good one, @RebelliousCow

Signalbox · 08/07/2023 16:28

SqueakyDinosaur · 08/07/2023 15:36

Jonathan Liew at the Independent wrote an equally offensive article in 2019:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/caster-semenya-news-gender-martina-navratilova-trans-cas-jonathan-liew-column-a8792861.html#comments-area

The bit that made me so angry in 2019 that I still remember the article in 2023 is:

". Let’s say the floodgates do open. Let’s say transgender athletes pour into women’s sport, and let’s say, despite the flimsy and poorly-understood relationship between testosterone and elite performance, they dominate everything they touch. They sweep up Grand Slam tennis titles and cycling world championships. They monopolise the Olympics. They fill our football and cricket and netball teams. Why would that be bad? Really? Imagine the power of a trans child or teenager seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be inspiring."

Bloody hell what a complete wanker! “Just imagine if there was elite sports for males and a second category of sports for mediocre males but no category for women. Just imagine”. Thing is we don’t need to imagine that scenario because it was the way of things for years and women have only very recently created their own opportunities in sporting events and even now we are a long way from equality in most events.

OP posts:
FrancescaContini · 08/07/2023 16:44

RebelliousCow · 08/07/2023 15:57

"Cishet white men are the sexual predators in sport we must worry about. Not transgender female athletes"

So much confusion.

Agree 🤦‍♀️

swallowedAfly · 08/07/2023 17:49

The twaw crap was genius really because it prevented anyone from speaking sense. If you had to say males have no advantage over women in sport, men should be allowed in women's shelters etc then the absurdity would be obvious (still is obvious even with the obfuscation for most). Controlling language has huge power. People not being able to speak truth and having to dance around avoiding speaking it stifles rationality.

I am now in agreement with those who say we must never even conform to pronoun fictions because it IS the wedge - whether thin end or not it creates an opening for bullshit to flow through.

We have to just speak truth and keep speaking it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/07/2023 18:11

I think like Mika the breastfeeding male "mum", these stories are a concerted effort to socially engineer by moving the Overton window further to the TRA side.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/07/2023 18:12

swallowedAfly · 08/07/2023 17:49

The twaw crap was genius really because it prevented anyone from speaking sense. If you had to say males have no advantage over women in sport, men should be allowed in women's shelters etc then the absurdity would be obvious (still is obvious even with the obfuscation for most). Controlling language has huge power. People not being able to speak truth and having to dance around avoiding speaking it stifles rationality.

I am now in agreement with those who say we must never even conform to pronoun fictions because it IS the wedge - whether thin end or not it creates an opening for bullshit to flow through.

We have to just speak truth and keep speaking it.

Yes. All of this.

SunnyEgg · 08/07/2023 18:18

swallowedAfly · 08/07/2023 17:49

The twaw crap was genius really because it prevented anyone from speaking sense. If you had to say males have no advantage over women in sport, men should be allowed in women's shelters etc then the absurdity would be obvious (still is obvious even with the obfuscation for most). Controlling language has huge power. People not being able to speak truth and having to dance around avoiding speaking it stifles rationality.

I am now in agreement with those who say we must never even conform to pronoun fictions because it IS the wedge - whether thin end or not it creates an opening for bullshit to flow through.

We have to just speak truth and keep speaking it.

I agree. Language based in facts and biological reality not lies.

Otherwise we’re stuffed.

funnelfan · 08/07/2023 18:59

That article is the final straw for me and I've cancelled my "membership". I am happy to read opinions and articles which I can disagree with but make me think, but there are vanishingly small numbers of well researched and argued articles from believers in gender ideology.

It's a shame as my family has connections back when it was the Manchester Guardian and actually based in Manchester, but I chose to no longer spend my money supporting the publishing of rants disguised as articles (and OJ's salary).

SqueakyDinosaur · 09/07/2023 09:27

The Guardian is very fond of quoting "Comment is free, but facts are sacred", which maybe explains why they have disabled comments on that article. As the writer has used up all the comment-quota with her bullshit, any remarks from mere readers would be facts.

Backstreets · 09/07/2023 09:32

Signalbox · 08/07/2023 16:28

Bloody hell what a complete wanker! “Just imagine if there was elite sports for males and a second category of sports for mediocre males but no category for women. Just imagine”. Thing is we don’t need to imagine that scenario because it was the way of things for years and women have only very recently created their own opportunities in sporting events and even now we are a long way from equality in most events.

This is why I oppose the third category too. Only men would win it. Women would (maybe) get one category, men would get two. They can compete in their sex class or fuck off. Winning prize money and medals is NOT a human right.

FrancescaContini · 09/07/2023 09:54

SqueakyDinosaur · 09/07/2023 09:27

The Guardian is very fond of quoting "Comment is free, but facts are sacred", which maybe explains why they have disabled comments on that article. As the writer has used up all the comment-quota with her bullshit, any remarks from mere readers would be facts.

“Facts are sacred” - so disabling comments is tantamount to the Guardian saying that this is a factual article?!

Also: what a po-faced, sanctimonious little statement. The Guardian isn’t what it used to be.

swallowedAfly · 09/07/2023 15:10

but I chose to no longer spend my money supporting the publishing of rants disguised as articles (and OJ's salary) absolutely 100% not willing to pay even a fraction of a penny towards that odious misogynistic narcissist's salary.

MavisMcMinty · 09/07/2023 15:54

TBF, the Guardian rarely opens articles to comment. The Politics Live feed is open to comments, as is the political sketch, but the majority aren’t, particularly on controversial opinion pieces where the moderators would be flat out, deleting posts.

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