Male and Gender Critical

[Letmespeak82]

Anyone else find being associated with some of the male Gender Critical activists a bit…well embarrassing? I’m not even going to deal with the dumpster fire that is Glinner (though it seems many on this board love him). But now we have James Esses who is hyper focused on what this woman is wearing. What difference does it make if she wears revealing clothes or not? Typical gross male attitude.

Dennis Kavanagh is well able for them. I imagine a verbal joust with him would be like walking head first into a threshing machine.

Ha!

Unfortunately for them, those atempting that simply don't have the werewithal to recognise it.

I'm not sure, and OP will tell me if I am completely wrong, but I am under the impression that the OP doesn't approve of a lot of people who are fighting the good fight. Am I right, OP? What are your thoughts on Kellie-Jay, for example?

James Esses is on the radar because
a - he sat through 7 hours of a Pink News Trans Training Session and took notes
b - he is being contacted by people within the NSPCC to detail how the NSPCC are putting kids at risk.

So he is a hot topic for people to 'go off' him and stop listening to him.

It is nothing to do with a woman donning some bondage gear and banging on about asexual rights.

Personally, I find most men, especially heterosexual men are naturally rejecting of gender ideology. It is only those invested in their identities as social justice warriors that go along with it.

I'm no sure what point the OP is making?

Some clothes do have particular meanings.

This is a completely separate issue from the clothing you are wearing somehow permitting another person to assault you?

All the men I know are gender critical and think gender/trans ideology is a load of bollocks.

Those who successfully challenge trans extremism are regularly subjected to similar treatment on here - usually KJK & Glinner - so it's good to see 2 more ethical & very effective male campaigners getting the same treatment 😀

The OP's post doesn't have a point to make other than character assassination. It was fail.

No, the clothes are just an example of why OP doesn't want men joining in challenging gender ideology.

I think there are a lot of spoilt young people trying to claim their human rights are being violated and they they need protection.

The clothes are a bit irrelevant.

Who really needs to know if a person doesn't have sexual attraction to others or not/or doesn't have sex/or does have sex after developing a bond with another.. the ridiculous nature of all the different genders now. There appears to be a professional victim status now and the ones claiming it want everyone to notice them.

Each of the different 100 or so genders are looking to be the special ones and want to claim their human rights are not being protected etc etc blah blah blah. Meanwhile in many countries Afghanistan etc real human rights abuses!

Anyone else find being associated with some of the male Gender Critical activists a bit…well embarrassing? ... Typical gross male attitude.

No, I think it's to be expected, and that's a good thing.

Gender critical views are based on science and common sense. It's not some niche movement where you can only come in if you do and say x, y and z, like gender identity ideology is.

The whole point is that biological sex matters, and it matters for racists and religious extremists and ultra-conservatives and sexist men just as much as it does for you.

If a racist says the sky is blue, it doesn't mean it's any less likely that the sky is blue because they're racist. Scientific facts are still scientific facts, regardless of who else thinks them.

To be honest, if I agreed with everyone who's gender critical on everything else at this point in the gender identity discussion, I would be questioning whether it is some sort of cult because we'd all have been programmed to hold an identical set of beliefs. That would be extremely worrying.

This isn't directed at Esses, but more generally, the fact that all sorts of people, including respected scientists and academics, prominent public figures and politicians, as well as some mad and awful people, also accept scientific facts as facts doesn't make me worry that the science is wrong - it just makes me think some of them might have odd views.

And it doesn't make me wish they would stop talking, because it's the gender identity ideologues who push the notion of guilt-by-association onto liberal women as another way to guilt them into submission as a silencing tactic. They're the ones describing gender critical views as a "movement" (like we just invented biological sex out of nowhere) and pointing to awful people who also happen to believe in biology and saying "ooh, look, that's you, that is" - because they don't have logic on their side, only emotional manipulation. They've made huge strides by shaming women in to "being nice" already, so it's a proven tactic.

I don't see males or anyone else whose interests aren't aligned with mine as speaking for me - they're speaking up for the biological facts. And it's natural that they'd approach it from their own perspectives, just as I do.

Same here. So many are now speaking out against this crap.

The slow seepage of different genders and all have to treated as special and considered (no matter how stupid some of the titles they give themselves and the flags they wave) which has captured many organisations so that they don't speak out. This means paedophiles (MAPS's) are using the gender crap to hide amongst the victim status, together with sexual predators hiding in women's clothes to abuse women, fetishes being played out in public (men with bollocks hanging out telling stories to kids), we are told it's normal and if we say anything we get the Nazi/Terf labels.

It feels there is a rush to feel a victim. A need to create a special label for whatever sexual preference they have. The next: I'm a Tsex-no-sex (that's when you only fancy sex on a Tuesday and the rest of the week you completely go off sex) - then find a flag - pink one end and black and white stripes for the other days, then claim I need protection because my human rights are being violated because no-one makes allowances for people who only have sex on Tuesday whah, whah whah.

I don't see males or anyone else whose interests aren't aligned with mine as speaking for me - they're speaking up for the biological facts. And it's natural that they'd approach it from their own perspectives, just as I do.

Excellent post LonginesPrime and above quote sums up my views.

You said it much better than I could.

Young people ( I'm assuming youth in the OP) always act like, and think, they are the only people ever to have questioned convention. It is the nature of youth to assume you are a pioneer. Yet none of this stuff is at all new. History keeps recycling the same issues just in slighlt differnt contexts and settings.

What I have become aware of inthe last 10 years or so is how each new generation really doesn't learn from their predesessors at all; or in any way imbibe what has already been learned as if by osmosis. They have t go through the same cycle themselves.

It is frustrating!

This generation is living in the reality created by the last round of civil rights struggles - but the older generations who have been through it, or created that, have now moved on and view things differently.

I don't have to agree with everything James Esses says to be hugely grateful to him for what he does.

I think kids who are reacting to the homophobia, sexism, misogyny and stereotypes in the world around them ought to be able to access therapy without the risk of their therapist evangelising them onto a medical pathway.

I think a charity that holds statutory child protection powers, nspcc, ought to be condemning and investigating any parent who feeds their infant on bodily fluid that isn't breast milk.

I'm also grateful to Graham Linehan for his plain speaking. We need more, not less, of this.

"Watch your tone". "Watch who you consort with".
They're such common accusations here. I'm afraid I always imagine the poster (and their inevitable cheerleader who pops up a few posts in) to be a drag act of a wealthy old lady running a finishing school.

That's an interesting observation.

Surely it doesn't have to be the natural state of affairs though. Other things eg technological advances, are learned and expanded on with each generation. I think there's always a vested interest in stopping feminist wisdom from being passed down. It's just they don't currently favour burning at the stake so use other ways to alienate younger women from older women.

Each new generation inherits the technology and the environment that has been created by their predecessors - but the individual life cycle and its various stages still have to be gone through anew. Even with technological change life's lessons are still the same.

When you go back and reading Victorian literature, for example, you realise how people are still essentially the same; facing the same sorts of human issue; the same questions, struggles and so on.

When I read 'Villette' by Charlott Bronte, for example - it is totally relatable' very contemporary.

I don't think we'll ever reach a state in which the differences between males and females are not an issue with which we struggle. Transgenderism, in its way, is an attempt to escape that struggle - by denying that those differnces even exist in the firts place - and by acting as if all differences are socially constructed.

Wow this thread is a real lesson in framing. Pretty sure if OP had come on and said ‘should young women be able to wear what they want without being told they are asking for/up for sex’? - most women on this board would agree. Because it’s been seen as an attack against the GC group then instead there’s all sorts of weird arguments being made that wearing shorts and a crop top (even leather ones!) means you are up for sex and can’t define yourself as not wanting any. I think asexuality is basically silly, but it definitely is misogynistic of James to be going round commenting on what women are wearing and using phrases like ‘scantily clad’ to ‘prove’ a woman’s sexual desires.

I also think it’s true that being a GC man isn’t the same as being a feminist ally, and some display very male behaviour incl. misogyny. But there are also men who’ve done a lot to push back on this stuff and who aren’t attention seeking or trying to make it all about them.

I wonder if she would have made a stronger case if she had been naked. Then it’s not about the clothes (and what or what they don’t symbolise) but the person. A naked body is not inherently sexual but adding clothes associated with sexual submissive behaviour subverts her message. Most women wouldn’t wear what she is wearing. It’s unusual for non asexual women. If that’s the point - I like to parade in sexually submissive clothing but don’t have sexual feelings - it’s so nuanced it looks farfetched. Which is what the tweet was about.

It’s like if she was wearing football kit - I would think she played football. It’s nothing about being up for playing football without consent and I wouldn’t assume she wanted to play football with me.

Many women have appeared naked as a protest before this woman paraded. So maybe it was too passé. Or maybe, as pp suggested, she hasn’t realised she’s not some sort of pioneer.

On the plus side, OJ really doesn’t look comfortable either in that photo.

Wear what you want but shouldn’t we be questioning why some teen girls want to look like, as pp said up thread, sex dolls? Do we really think that women/girls have chosen this aesthetic for themselves? How is running round in a pair of knickers empowering?

I argue with my teen about it all the time but these are the images she has grown up with on insta/TikTok/music videos - she’s not ready to have to rebuff the attention that comes with her clothes but the mantra is not to shame them about their clothes choices. Some of the stuff her friends post on TikTok etc are shockingly sexualised - I don’t see any agency in their choices. They want to be liked and desired before they even really know what it means cos that is the message society is giving them. I despair.