Pronouns on socials

[itsapalaver]

Why would someone who's previously shared feminist views add their pronouns to their Instagram? I always assumed if you did that it means you support trans rights, I don't get how you can be a feminist and do that but happy to stand corrected!

I suspect that, one end of the feminism spectrum, there is a strong overlap with the sex-is-a-spectrum people.

My best friend at work is GC and has pronouns displayed so no one suspects him and he can manoeuvre politically still grates on me through

I did wonder if she'd just done it because everyone else will have them where she works and she's trying to fit in.

I think somewhere on the 'virtue signalling' / compelled speech spectrum.

Stick and carrot as ever, a little pat on the head for toeing the line, saying the right thing. Criticism and shunning if you do not.

Feminism at its core is about the equality of the sexes not about whether or not you think having pronouns on social media is a good idea. Many women who consider themselves feminists are not gender critical. You might not agree with them but you are not the arbiter of who is allowed to consider themselves a feminist.

Many women who consider themselves feminists are not gender critical.

Feminism actually means something. Gender roles are conservative and oppressive.

You'd really have to ask the person in question, OP - there could be any number of reasons why someone might do this and it doesn't mean they've suddenly changed their views. But if you aren't close enough to ask her why directly, I'd be asking myself why it matters what she thinks.

She might be trying to show solidarity for someone she knows who's going through a tough time and has come out as trans, or she might have read an article or had training at work on being an ally. Or she might have just seen other people around her doing it and is hopping on the bandwagon without giving it too much thought at all. There's no way of knowing what she's thinking without talking to her.

This doesn't change the fact that many women who consider themselves feminists are not gender critical.

This is the thing though. I may have completely over simplified this but - isn't the whole trans thing reliant on gender stereotyping? And if you're a feminist you wouldn't believe in gender stereotypes would you? So how can you be both a trans ally and a feminist?

Most people wish that gender stereotypes weren't a thing and we could all just live in a lovely gender-free society where no one is defined by what is between their legs. Sadly, that is very clearly not the case. Supporting trans people is supporting the reality that people are impacted by gender stereotypes. They just are. Regardless of what we think the world 'should' be like - and, as a result of that, they have the right to make choices for their own lives.

In an ideal world there would probably be no trans people because everyone would be perfectly comfortable and happy in the body they were born in and sex/ gender wouldn't be so much of a defining feature of our lives. But if you think that is how the world is, you must have a fairly rose-tinted view of things.

You can be a trans ally by accepting that some people are trans and respecting their right to have that choice. That's all it means. It doesn't mean you accept or want gender stereotypes to exist, but the fact is that sadly, they do, and some people are impacted by them and have desires/ needs to be trans. This view is not in opposition with being a feminist and working towards a better and more equal society. It is simply a realist view that we are not there yet and in the meantime, people will make choices that are right for them.

Some women who appear conventionally masculine and have arty friends are constantly asked for their pronouns. The Observer this weekend flat out asked Alison Bechdel if she’d “ever considered switching pronouns”.

Such women sometimes put their she/her pronouns in their bio to make a point. As Bechdel said, “I’ve worked hard to count as a ‘she’, so I’m going to stick there.” When a butch lesbian puts she/her, I take it as a sign that her feminism is focused on dismantling gender stereotypes so female people can do and be whatever they want. If you’re butch enough, you may get away with this kind of thinking for years before your friends notice you’ve slipped into heresy and demand you repent.

I guess that’s the our thought. Most of the discussion is around aggressive TRAs who are almost always male who try and present as women. This has led to a challenge to women’s equality by undermining the experience of women, infiltrating women’s sports, parodying women, including many of the issues around women’s reproductive systems that feeds into the inequality.

transwomen are men. To try and conclude otherwise is a direct attack on women’s rights. There has to be some unbelievable mental gymnastics going on to believe otherwise.

I have no issue with men presenting as women, but they have to accept they are not women. They will never be able to experience life as a woman and all the difficulties that entails. Pretending they do is an insulting parody.

I’m sorry but gender is predicated on stereotypes, it reinforces them. It is therefore harmful to women and equality.

what is gender? What is a woman? Anything that is not based on physical characteristics can only ever be based on stereotypes. Therefore by supporting trans ideology you’re supporting gender stereotypes

Most people wish that gender stereotypes weren't a thing and we could all just live in a lovely gender-free society where no one is defined by what is between their legs.

So a world where “gender” doesn’t exist and nobody is defined by “what is between their legs” (do you mean sex)? So no recognition of male or female? Which would also mean no recognition of TW or TM.

You think most people wish for a society like that?

It doesn't mean you accept or want gender stereotypes to exist, but the fact is that sadly, they do, and some people are impacted by them and have desires/ needs to be trans.

Trans people are not simply “affected” by stereotypes, they actively reinforce them. Why would someone who thinks they are the opposite “gender” want to do away with something that evidences their existence. Without the stereotypes associated with being female, TW wouldn’t be able to signal to the world that it shouldn’t regard them as men.

You can be a trans ally by accepting that some people are trans and respecting their right to have that choice

So you think being trans is a choice?

In an ideal world there would probably be no trans people

You are definitely wading into “transphobic” territory with this one. Welcome to Mumsnet.

You can be a trans ally by accepting that some people are trans and respecting their right to have that choice. That's all it means. It doesn't mean you accept or want gender stereotypes to exist, but the fact is that sadly, they do, and some people are impacted by them and have desires/ needs to be trans. This view is not in opposition with being a feminist and working towards a better and more equal society. It is simply a realist view that we are not there yet and in the meantime, people will make choices that are right for them.

But stating your own pronouns is declaring that you have a gender identity. It might not be that that's what OP's person is saying (as we don't know her specific reasons), but unless she has simply done it to look cool, if you take her at face value, she is saying that she believes in gender identity ideology, similar to how walking around wearing a crucifix would lead people to assume you're a Christian (even if the truth is that it's a family heirloom or you just think it goes with your outfit or whatever).

I agree with you that some people think that stating their own pronouns means "I accept that some people are trans and I respect their right to make that choice", and obviously feminism isn't incompatible with that view, which is just basic human decency to accept that other people have different beliefs and should be free to express them.

However, stating one's own pronouns goes one step further than merely supporting people in their belief that they are trans as it indicates that the person accepts that belief as real to them too. Which is fine; totally their choice to believe what they like, but believing in the existence of one's own inner sense of gender identity is very different from merely supporting trans people.

I would also argue from my own experience as an autistic lesbian that non-trans people stating their pronouns doesn't merely support existing trans people but actually creates new trans people and exacerbates gender distress, as the rest of us who are trying to work out what gender means to us (including children and young people, gay people, GNC people, neurodivergent people, and so on) often interpret a non-trans person stating their pronouns as saying "yep, I too have an inner sense of gender that is so evident to me that I'm sufficiently confident to declare this fact to the world". And so the rest of us who are wondering what on Earth everyone else is even talking about what they say 'inner gender' start to worry and think we must therefore be trans because all these non-trans people can feel their gender identity too and we can't.

Whether or not you agree with them a lot of women who consider themselves feminists are not gender critical. They do not need yours or anyone else's approval to think of themselves in this way. I am not arguing that they are right or wrong but stating that these people exist.

What do you mean by trans ally?
You can support trans people without believing that transwomen are the same as women.

transwomen are men. To try and conclude otherwise is a direct attack on women’s rights.

I think that a lot of people (on both sides) speak as if people are either staunchly gender critical in all ways (and therefore wish harm on trans people) or believe that people can literally change sex (and therefore think it is OK for transwomen to power lift in the women's category). In my experience in real life off the internet the vast majority of people are actually between these two viewpoints.

But stating your own pronouns is declaring that you have a gender identity.

That's an assumption about motives. You can;t possibly know this unless the person has told you.

I would say that I don't have a gender identity but I accept that some people do. Does that make me a raging TRA who wants to trample on women's rights? Or am I a massive TERF because I am not accepting that I have a gender?

I have been accused of being both so take your pick 😂

I disagree that feminism is about equality between the sexes. Or at least that’s not what it means to me. It means liberation for women from men, from patriarchy. Feminism being for all, or about making life better for everyone is just another way to make women put other people before themselves. It is sexist. It doesn’t go far enough.

Sorry, that came off as irrelevant. Posting your pronouns signals to other people that you think people can identify however they like and be treated as such. That means a man can choose to identify as a woman and be treated as one, by women. That is sexist as it allows men to centre themselves in feminism and make themselves the victims of patriarchy when in fact they are the oppressors.

But doesn't being GC just mean you understand that it's not biologically possible to change the sex you were born? And that biological sex is real and gender is a social construct based on stereotypes? I don't understand how anyone isn't GC?

Posting your pronouns signals to other people that you think people can identify however they like and be treated as such.

That is as much of a leap as when people say that people who don't post pronouns chose not to in order to harm trans people.
You have no idea why people chose to post their pronouns, just as TRAs have no idea why you chose not to.

I would have thought so too.
However I don't think humans can literally change sex either but have been told I am a TRA incapable of critical thinking on this forum so there we go.

I don't think that someone posting their pronouns means that they believe that people can literally change sex. Do you?

Yeah I think it’s virtue signalling without a hell of a lot of thought by most.

I refuse.

I have nothing to gain and everything to lose by reminding people of my femaleness in a male dominated industry. I have a feminine name. No further identification required.

very few people I work with have their pronouns on their email signature and/or LinkedIn but those that do tend to be under the age of 30. Peer pressure?

I don't put "my pronouns" on anything. Because I oppose the ideology which demands that people do.

very few people I work with have their pronouns on their email signature and/or LinkedIn but those that do tend to be under the age of 30. Peer pressure?

I think it is normal that younger people have different ideas to their parents generation. I definitely see the world different to my parents and I am sure that you do. I am not sure that dismissing anyone that disagrees with you as succumbing to peer pressure is helpful if your ultimate aim would be for society to move to place where you feel like women's rights are being protected.