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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Pronouns on socials

79 replies

itsapalaver · 02/07/2023 18:57

Why would someone who's previously shared feminist views add their pronouns to their Instagram? I always assumed if you did that it means you support trans rights, I don't get how you can be a feminist and do that but happy to stand corrected!

OP posts:
Hepwo · 03/07/2023 23:34

They don't have to be, certainly polling shows up very nuanced views based on the circumstances.

Most people don't have to think critically about it as they already know there's two sexes and many of them, despite being old enough to be parents of 30 year olds, already knew about transexuals for far more than 30 years. They are quite reasonable in expecting to be able to stick with that knowledge.

Those that have produced critical output have done it to inform those wishing to understand this more recent insistence that sex changes are actually happening and have looked into the profession of that idea in detail. This is all available publicly. How this came about is as important as what is now being claimed.

This categorisation of people as GC not GC, feminist not feminist, is all rather arcane for most people and not really very significant in the end.

NewNameNigel · 04/07/2023 00:07

This categorisation of people as GC not GC, feminist not feminist, is all rather arcane for most people and not really very significant in the end.

👏👏👏

JellySaurus · 04/07/2023 00:10

You don't have to be feminist or GC to know that sex is immutable.

LonginesPrime · 04/07/2023 00:20

Believing in gender identity ideology while also not believing in it isn't logically possible

This is the point I'm making. This attitude of "you are either with us or against us" with no room for disagreement on any aspect is common to both sides of this debate. There is no room for critical thinking or analysis of different aspects. It's one way or the other.

It's a bit like being an atheist watching two religions fight.

Well, I don't want to fight and I don't want to force my lack of belief on anyone else. But I also don't want to convert or to be condemned as a heathen and have my lack of belief negatively affect my life, career, etc.

I don't personally feel that trans people are "the enemy" at all and I don't have any issue with them living however they like as long as it's not harming anyone else. I don't care that they don't believe the same as me, and I have friends with lots of beliefs I don't share (including other religions and gender identity ideology). I just don't see why it's a problem to hold a specific view and not want to be bullied or shamed into pretending I believe something different.

By saying that it's not logically possible to simultaneously believe in gender identity ideology and not believe in it, I don't mean that people who believe in gender identity ideology are my enemies or that I think they're against me because we have different ideas about gender; I just mean that I can't believe that both sides of a pair of mutually exclusive statements are correct as it makes no logical sense.

I'd be interested to hear how you manage to reconcile the two beliefs though, assuming that your views sit somewhere in this nuanced middle ground you speak of - what does that look like for you in terms of belief in gender identity?

itsapalaver · 04/07/2023 05:16

I don't have any issue with them living however they like as long as it's not harming anyone else.

But this is the crux of the issue isn't it? I personally don't give a shit what people wear, or how they present generally. Men are welcome to wear lipstick and heels if that's what they like.

It's when they want to enter women's spaces/compete against women in sport/"chestfeed" babies that it becomes a problem, and that's happening.

OP posts:
Delphin · 04/07/2023 08:59

NewNameNigel · 03/07/2023 23:33

i don't use pronouns i have a name

I is a pronoun and you've used it twice in this short quote alone

Yep. That is why I entered/will enter "I/me", when pronouns are asked. Gets the point across nicely.

So far has only happened once (on an English-speaking hobby website/forum, as GI hasn't arrived to the broad public in Germany yet).

LonginesPrime · 04/07/2023 09:13

itsapalaver · 04/07/2023 05:16

I don't have any issue with them living however they like as long as it's not harming anyone else.

But this is the crux of the issue isn't it? I personally don't give a shit what people wear, or how they present generally. Men are welcome to wear lipstick and heels if that's what they like.

It's when they want to enter women's spaces/compete against women in sport/"chestfeed" babies that it becomes a problem, and that's happening.

Yes, exactly - I'm fine with someone believing themselves to be a woman but not with them compelling me to agree with them, especially when it affects real life situations where sex actually does matter.

Also, one thing I've had to deal with a lot over recent years which I've personally found harmful as a lesbian heavily involved in LGBT and women's rights initiatives is biological males dressed as nursery rhyme characters or Halloween 80's pop stars telling me they're the same as me and relying on my goodwill to smile and nod when they're earnestly telling me and other women that they 'knew they were a woman when they wanted to play with their sister's toy kitchen as a child' and making exaggerated 'womanly' gestures that would be considered utterly sexist and insulting to women in any other context. The emperor's new clothes style gaslighting where we're all supposed to sit there and smile and nod and not challenge sexism is harmful to women's mental health, and the reason we're doing it is purportedly to protect that male's mental health because he believes himself to be a woman even though we all obviously know he isn't really. So all of us caring women are rallying round to protect him from his own fragile psychological situation by letting him insult us and reanimate all the sexist stereotypes we've fought for years to eradicate.

I also think it's harmful to tell children, gay people, neurodivergent people, GNC people that it's possible to be born in the wrong body, that you can change biological sex, or that if you experience gender congruence you might in fact be trans. I've been taken in by that and did believe I was agender and felt deficient for ages because I couldn't feel my inner sense of gender but apparently non-trans people and trans people all can (largely thanks to pronouns and people declaring themselves "cis"). I thought there was something wrong with me for years as I struggled with this "gender identity" I was supposed to have, which again was harm caused by trans people assuming that everyone experiences the world the way they do, and then guilting everyone else into agreeing with them so as not to upset them.

Trying to reconcile gender identity ideology with my own lack of a sense of gender identity affected me similarly to growing up gay and religious as a child, where you're forced to accept there's something wrong with you and you have to talk to god and find a way to be different from who you are as you're told that it's possible to change and if you could only work that bit harder on your inner self, you'll get there eventually. There's not a world where forcing this belief system on vulnerable people isn't harmful.

I don't have an issue with trans people dressing how they like and living their lives, but I do wish gender identity ideologues would stop assuming that everyone has a gender identity just because they feel they do.

Abhannmor · 04/07/2023 09:25

Sadiq Khan has this all sussed. Pronouns on his Mayor of London socials ; just Sadiq on his own account.

NewNameNigel · 04/07/2023 09:50

I'd be interested to hear how you manage to reconcile the two beliefs though, assuming that your views sit somewhere in this nuanced middle ground you speak of - what does that look like for you in terms of belief in gender identity?

Hi @LonginesPrime, I guess the quick way of saying it is that I feel like a lot of people who post on this corner of mumsnet have taken a whole swathe of issues/ scenarios and categorized them as gender ideology and therefore bad whereas I prefer to look at each thing on its own merits and come to a conclusion about it based on that. I also try to avoid making leaps and hyperbolic statements about the motivations of people who disagree with me (eg I would never say that someone who has pronouns in their LinkedIn is doing so because they want declare they have a gender identity and wants to erase womanhood or that JK Rowling want trans women to be murdered etc.)

I can go into more detail later on if you are interested, I have meetings for most of the day.

I am a bit nervous about this as a few weeks ago I posted something on this forum and a poster didn't like my beliefs or explanation for them so followed me around the forum and commented on others threads demanding an explanation from me which made me feel like I was being harassed - if that poster is reading please don't do this again!

I would like to engage in conversations that are focused more on how to move to practical ways to manage real life situations in ways that are fair and comfortable to everyone. I don't think it is very productive to have long conversation about being outraged because a company has used a transwomen in advert for something (for example).

Hepwo · 04/07/2023 10:37

There is no need to read or post on threads you consider unproductive.

It's also very easy to skip over hyperbole. You can engage in a mental block of posters in the absence of a block button.

Report people harrassing you and skip over them too.

Because of the structure of the board you have to do your own editing and moderation of who you read and what you ignore, it's not possible to achieve that in any other way here.

There is a mix of thoughtful and productive with hyperbole and extreme on most threads. You can soon establish your own personal posting style without engaging with the styles that don't add to your train of thought.

There's often many conversations going on in one thread, it's not like being in a room, it's very different.

I like the multitude of voices and the overall pluralism this exemplifies, it's democracy in action and admirable for it, but I do still mentally edit a bit.

BigHeartyTruffle · 04/07/2023 11:01

I am broadly supportive of trans rights, and it would never occur to me that I’m not a feminist / am a bad feminist as a result. I am sure a lot of people here would be of a different view, but my position is not uncommon.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/07/2023 11:03

When you say "broadly supportive", what are your red lines, if you don't mind me asking?

LonginesPrime · 04/07/2023 12:23

NewNameNigel I can see what you mean about not wanting to group issues together and to take them case by case, which makes sense.

I do sometimes have to stop and interrogate my own thinking on these issues as humans naturally look for patterns and so it's easy to spot similarities between some of these things.

As you say, companies advertising using transwomen is one of those areas where there might be circumstances where I don't personally find it an issue (depending on the person, product, messaging, etc). I originally thought "does it matter if DM is advertising beer?" But because of the nasty way DM parodies being a woman (regardless of whether it is supposed to be self-deprecating, as that's kind of worse), I find that damaging and inappropriate of the beer company, whereas if the trans person was this proverbial "normal person just trying to live their life" we keep hearing so much about, then I probably wouldn't have seen it as an issue, as people with gender dysphoria obviously drink beer too. I don't love how companies exploit people's gender distress by promoting it as cool and trendy either, as parents are struggling, kids are struggling, medical professionals are struggling to deal with all of this ethically and responsibly and I don't think the corporates are helping (not that they care).

On pattern-spotting and grouping ideas and behaviours together, I do think that's helpful for women's rights. It's only when we zoom out and look at women's experiences as a whole that we can recognise systemic oppression occurring at the level of biological sex. And that helps us to point to it, organise together as a class (women) to discuss it, object to it, and push for laws to eradicate it and to protect women on the basis of sex.

If it weren't for pattern-spotting, it would be much harder to help women, say, in domestic abuse situations or to even recognise that they might be in one. This is just one example of many where pattern spotting works to keep women safe(r).

I agree that some people jump straight to "this is terrible" when the thing seems innocuous, and from what you've said, I sense you've probably behaved similar to me and asked "but why is it terrible?" and been lambasted for even asking.

But I think it's important to keep asking why and playing devil's advocate (not in a trolly way, but to drill down to the real issues) and stress-testing one's own views on the issue, regardless of the occasional accusations of being a TRA-sympathiser, because the last thing anyone needs to do is adopt a viewpoint they either don't personally agree with or can't fully articulate to others (which can obviously look transphobic if someone says they don't like this transwoman being used to sell x, but can't explain why other than saying it's because they're trans).

It was when I was still (very actively) inside the LGBT community and started seeing the gender identity rhetoric shift a few years back that I started to think "hang on a minute, does this actually work for gay people and for women?" It took me a long time to work out what I actually thought outside of all the emotional pulls and accusations in both directions (including believing I was agender for quite a while, as that what I'd been told, and it was the only way I could reconcile the belief that everyone has a gender identity with my own experience of not having an inner sense of gender).

Wherever one stands on gender identity, I think it's important to be able to question things and be able to debate them, as it's only when we are free to speak openly and honestly that we can get to the bottom of the issues and find a fair solution.

NewNameNigel · 04/07/2023 14:01

@LonginesPrime I appreciate your thoughtful responses on this. I have been trying to explore my own feelings on this and have been finding it very hard to talk about with either side without being lambasted. To use the religious analogy again it's a bit like trying to explore the possibility of there being a God with fundamentalist Christians who are so offended by the suggestion that you have doubt about it you can't have a conversation with them on the subject,

As you say, companies advertising using transwomen is one of those areas where there might be circumstances where I don't personally find it an issue (depending on the person, product, messaging, etc). I originally thought "does it matter if DM is advertising beer?" But because of the nasty way DM parodies being a woman (regardless of whether it is supposed to be self-deprecating, as that's kind of worse), I find that damaging and inappropriate of the beer company, whereas if the trans person was this proverbial "normal person just trying to live their life" we keep hearing so much about, then I probably wouldn't have seen it as an issue, as people with gender dysphoria obviously drink beer too.

I am certainly not a fan of Dylan Mulvaney! However I remember a thread where people were really angry that the actor who played the transgirl in Heartstopper was going to be in Dr Who. It seemed that a lot people on that thread thought that trans actors should not be allowed to work on TV!

I think pattern spotting can be useful but I think lumping things together with no thought for real life consequences can be dangerous. It that kind of thinking that has led to the ridiculousness idea that transwomen should compete against natal women in power lifting!

Wherever one stands on gender identity, I think it's important to be able to question things and be able to debate them, as it's only when we are free to speak openly and honestly that we can get to the bottom of the issues and find a fair solution.

I agree but sadly I don't think anywhere exists where this is true for both sides of the debate and we end up with separate echo chambers backing up view with the narrative getting more and more polarized which makes it less and less likely that the issue can be resolved.

LonginesPrime · 04/07/2023 15:06

I agree but sadly I don't think anywhere exists where this is true for both sides of the debate and we end up with separate echo chambers backing up view with the narrative getting more and more polarized which makes it less and less likely that the issue can be resolved.

I would have said the same a year or two ago. However, I think that now the Forstater ruling and the accompanying financial award are settled, this will make it much more likely that public debates where both sides can freely air their opinions will be able to go ahead. Over time, more people will feel able to voice their opinions on gender identity issues, safe in the knowledge that gender critical beliefs are protected in law.

I know it won't magically solve things but I do genuinely believe that the Forstater case and the other similar cases going on at the moment will gradually bring about a cultural shift as more people feel able to voice their true feelings. This will hopefully lead to more nuanced debate about the many complex issues that are caught up in all of this. I think that the fact that many people, especially women who already had it tough, have felt silenced for so long (at work, socially, at their DC's school, etc) has contributed to a lot of the anger and frustration on both sides, and I suspect that some of the frustration that ends up spilling out into anonymous forums will dissipate once women don't feel relegated to whispering about this in secret.

Many gender identity ideologues appear outraged when people are allowed to air gender critical views publicly, and they say they want these "bigots" silenced. But I don't personally think that silencing people who disagree with them is good for them or for anyone with gender incongruence or gender dysphoria either in the long term, as the vigilance and aggression it takes to constantly monitor everyone for signs of dissent and shut them down must be absolutely exhausting and can't possibly be sustainable in the long run. I also think it's important for young people and their parents especially to be able to hear the voices of detransitioners and not have them dismissed them as irrelevant or be guilted into ignoring them when they are having to make irreversible decisions about their own or their child's future.

I think that however gender identity theory ends up being defined and handled in the future (whether it leans more towards a psychological or a philosophical thing or a bit of both), lots of people (including some people in government, thankfully) are starting to realise that the only way forward at this point is to be able to talk about the issues sensibly and honestly.

I think especially after the interim Cass report, it is slowly becoming more widely acknowledged that burying our heads in the sand has potentially caused serious harm to many people, including a large number of trans people, so I think it will have to be discussed more openly, as the issues have become too obvious to ignore at this point.

OscarsAmmonite · 04/07/2023 15:22

I've just asked my workplace to include a question about biological sex in our HR details. At present it's only gender. A whole range of characteristics need to be reported back anonymously to some public sector body for diversity reasons and answering the questions is mandatory. I said I didn't identify with gender.

NewNameNigel · 04/07/2023 15:36

Many gender identity ideologues appear outraged when people are allowed to air gender critical views publicly, and they say they want these "bigots" silenced.

This is true but let's not pretend that this is one sided. You yourself said earlier that you could lambasted on here for just asking why something was so bad.

I suspect that some of the frustration that ends up spilling out into anonymous forums will dissipate once women don't feel relegated to whispering about this in secret.
I totally agree with this. I think that fact that there aren't many places that people can share gender critical views definitely makes the situation worse. It also makes it hard for someone who isn't sure to talk to gender critical people and learn because then often bear the brunt of this frustration if they express a dissenting view.

I also think it's important for young people and their parents especially to be able to hear the voices of detransitioners and not have them dismissed them as irrelevant

I agree but we also should not ignore the fact that many detransitioners have said that they hate that the gender critical movement is using their stories as some kind of "gotcha".
I have listened a few interviews with detransitoners who said that they thought twice about telling stories because they are frightened of hate from the trans community and being used by the gender critical movement to imply that no one should transition.

LonginesPrime · 04/07/2023 16:59

This is true but let's not pretend that this is one sided. You yourself said earlier that you could lambasted on here for just asking why something was so bad.

Yes, but it clearly didn't shut me up!

(On that note, apologies OP for derailing your thread somewhat..)

I agree but we also should not ignore the fact that many detransitioners have said that they hate that the gender critical movement is using their stories as some kind of "gotcha".
I have listened a few interviews with detransitoners who said that they thought twice about telling stories because they are frightened of hate from the trans community and being used by the gender critical movement to imply that no one should transition.

That is sad that this is a concern they have that prevents them from being honest about their own situation or feelings.

However, assuming for the sake of argument that we're talking about rational people having a civilised debate (which I realise is less common than online insult-flinging!) I suspect that rather than a "gotcha", the story of a real-life detransitioner would naturally be offered as a counter-example to claims from the medical establishment and from others that there is an extremely low regret rate. When parents are considering transition for their child, this claim (that regret is extremely rare) is often cited by them as one of the factors that they considered in deciding how to navigate their child' situation. And it's important to correct claims made by the medical establishment if there is clear evidence that those claims are false, especially when it's a child's future on the line.

I get that a detransitioner wouldn't want to be used as a counter-example in a debate, especially an aggressive, heated one with misunderstandings on both sides. But detransitioners also often say that they decided to speak out to help others who might be going through similar difficulties as the ones they went through, and they often hope that their speaking out might help someone else to avoid the pain that they are experiencing.

I'm not in the medical or psychological fields, but my personal understanding is that there isn't currently sufficient clinical evidence to indicate that this new cohort of young people who have been brought up believing that changing biological sex is possible and that some people are born in the wrong body should transition. I accept that over time, as more studies are conducted, it might be that transitioning is deemed to be the best way to handle these new types of gender incongruence and gender dysphoria, but to me it doesn't seem to be at all clear that some people definitely should transition. Obviously if older people with traditional gender identity issues find it works for them, then they're adults and that's their choice - I don't really care if they transition as long as they accept they haven't actually changed sex.

I can absolutely see why a detransitioner would want to frame it as "transition wasn't right for me but it's right for some people" so as not to burn more bridges than they already have and because they might still genuinely believe that. But I don't personally think we know enough about what we're doing with gender identity to be able to say it should be happening to anyone with these new types of gender identity issues.

I've enjoyed this discussion NewNameNigel but I'm also conscious we've veered quite far from OP's original topic (sorry OP!).

IAmSalmaFuckingHayek · 04/07/2023 17:04

Not read the whole thread, but I was thinking about this the other day.
So many feminists who hit the nail on the head when it comes to men, but are full on TWAW.
I don’t understand how anyone can be so insightful as to issues surrounding men in general, but still believe that men can become women even when they’re obviously displaying the behaviour they’re discussing in other men. It’s bizarre.

MavisMcMinty · 04/07/2023 18:07

But detransitioners also often say that they decided to speak out to help others who might be going through similar difficulties as the ones they went through, and they often hope that their speaking out might help someone else to avoid the pain that they are experiencing.

@LonginesPrime

This is a very human desire, and commonly seen in healthcare - e.g. people with cancer campaigning for early-detection screening and to raise awareness, to prevent the same thing happening to others. I was in a bad RTA 30 years ago and the visitors I most appreciated were the people who’d broken bones or been in RTAs themselves, who had extra empathy and understanding, so when I recovered I had this great desire to visit patients on orthopaedic wards with multiple injuries, just so they’d know that eventually they’d be all right(ish) again. (I went back to work so didn’t do this, and was probably partly motivated by the selfish desire to talk about me me me anyway!)

Jellyx · 04/07/2023 20:35

Thelnebriati · 02/07/2023 23:43

Many women who consider themselves feminists are not gender critical.

Feminism actually means something. Gender roles are conservative and oppressive.

But plenty of women would like to be able to afford to be stay at home mums? Are they oppressing themselves?

How are any of us oppressed , due to gender, in the UK? I don't get it

NewNameNigel · 05/07/2023 12:42

However, assuming for the sake of argument that we're talking about rational people having a civilised debate

😂I can;t even begin to imagine that at the moment!

But detransitioners also often say that they decided to speak out to help others who might be going through similar difficulties as the ones they went through, and they often hope that their speaking out might help someone else to avoid the pain that they are experiencing.

They do but it doesn't follow that this means that they are gender critical or want to be associated with activists like Kelly Jay-Keen or people. They are all individuals with their own story to tell and their own reasons for telling it and I think people should respect those reasons. It is not OK to use them to promote your own opinion and the way they are hounded by some TRAs is disgusting. These people have been through enough. I feel like if both sides backed off more detransitioners would feel able to speak out.

I've enjoyed this discussion NewNameNigelbut I'm also conscious we've veered quite far from OP's original topic (sorry OP!).

Me too @LonginesPrime

SerafinasGoose · 05/07/2023 13:10

NewNameNigel · 02/07/2023 23:41

Feminism at its core is about the equality of the sexes not about whether or not you think having pronouns on social media is a good idea. Many women who consider themselves feminists are not gender critical. You might not agree with them but you are not the arbiter of who is allowed to consider themselves a feminist.

What has feminism done since the year dot?

It critiques gender. Gender has always been the social instrument of women's biological oppression. Feminism across the ages has attempted to unpick and challenge that.

Gender-critical feminism is a tautology. They come as a package.

Thelnebriati · 05/07/2023 15:15

Jellyx

Birthing and raising children is something women do because of our sex; its not a gender role.
Expecting all women to stay at home because that's what they do while men go to work and earn money; that is a gender role.

JellySaurus · 05/07/2023 15:32

Feminism at its core is about the equality of the sexes not about whether or not you think having pronouns on social media is a good idea. Many women who consider themselves feminists are not gender critical. You might not agree with them but you are not the arbiter of who is allowed to consider themselves a feminist.

Feminism at its core is about women, about women having the equality with men. Having pronouns on social media is a bad idea because it enables and emphasises misogynistic attitudes. Many women who consider themselves feminists are not gender critical. I may not agree with them and I am certainly the arbiter of who I am allowed to consider a feminist.

No different to a man considering himself to be a woman. I am not the arbiter of his thoughts. I am certainly the arbiter of mine. I am certainly allowed to consider him a man.

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