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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Caitlin Moran article 1 Jul in Guardian

87 replies

funnelfan · 01/07/2023 12:58

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/01/caitlin-moran-whats-gone-wrong-for-men-and-the-thing-that-can-fix-them?

I’m still not sure how to respond to this. I love Caitlin's writing and I find it hard to disagree with anything she’s written here, so I’ll probably buy the book as I have most of her others.

However, however, one thing jumped out at me. Why is it up to women to tell men they must fix the terrible issues they have with homophobia, bullying, loneliness, suicide etc, and show them how to do it? There’s great groups out there like shed clubs etc that are trying to get the message out that “it’s ok to be not ok”. Isn’t it a bit patronising to be saying mean should be using the women’s examples of support as the way forward for men?

Of course women who are sisters, mothers, daughters, friends etc will always be concerned about their male loved ones in distress. But the overall theme of the article as I read it leans towards women being the default support-human in showing them the way and I’m uncomfortable with that. On the other hand, we also see what happens when men start campaigning for rights on their own and it isn’t very pretty.

so I’m not sure how to reconcile my thoughts at the moment. Interestingly, “trans” issues did not even get a sniff of a mention in the article, and I don’t know whether that’s because Caitlin seems to avoid the topic entirely anyway so it’s not in the book, or whether it’s because it’s the Guardian and what she wrote in the book may not fit with their current thinking.

OP posts:
RealityFan · 05/07/2023 20:36

GP75 · 05/07/2023 19:51

CM is full on TWAW, she's posted about it on twitter and spoke about it in one of her books a couple years ago, I've not read anything by her since and won't. Liked her 20 years ago, she wrote one decent book, it was quite funny but she's not the brightest 🤷‍♀️

Yep, I'm sure Caitlin considers hereself a glitter person, special and blessed, outspoken and determined, inclusive and accomodating.

And I'm sure she considers all the people joining her team, y'know the male people joining the female team, to also be glittery and special and yada yada.

To be filed in the "was fun once, but now so yesterday's chip wrapper" waste paper basket.

Lentilweaver · 05/07/2023 21:05

I have actually enjoyed some of her interviews and columns. Her books appear contrived.

Rubidium · 07/07/2023 09:30

Even The Guardian are having a go now, in the most Guardian way possible:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/07/caitlin-moran-men-talk-feelings-book-masculinity

The thing is, there are big problems facing men and boys today, like the suicide rates and the impact of internet pornography, but they’re not going to be fixed by a female Times columnist writing a book containing puns about the Archbishop of Banterbury.

No, Caitlin Moran: men do talk about their feelings – and birthday parties, and plaits | Gaby Hinsliff

Modern masculinity is increasingly about opening up, says Guardian columnist Gaby Hinsliff

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/07/caitlin-moran-men-talk-feelings-book-masculinity

RealityFan · 07/07/2023 09:49

Maybe Caitlin is a big supporter of trans because she thinks more biological women should become dads to follow her advice on How To Be A Great Dad.

DontYouThreatenMeWithADeadFish · 07/07/2023 09:54

"Why is it up to women to tell men they must fix the terrible issues they have with homophobia, bullying, loneliness, suicide etc, and show them how to do it?"

It is not up to women to fix men and to be honest the Guardian style (I know Moran writes for the Times) pieces of the hectoring, patronising 'hey men, you are a bit rubbish but this is how you can fix yourselves' variety gets a bit wearisome after a while. I also think the 'men are crap at discussing anything outside of football and gadgets' narrative that is often served up is just as unhelpful.

DontYouThreatenMeWithADeadFish · 07/07/2023 10:01

Rubidium · 07/07/2023 09:30

Even The Guardian are having a go now, in the most Guardian way possible:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/07/caitlin-moran-men-talk-feelings-book-masculinity

The thing is, there are big problems facing men and boys today, like the suicide rates and the impact of internet pornography, but they’re not going to be fixed by a female Times columnist writing a book containing puns about the Archbishop of Banterbury.

Good article from Gabby

SidewaysOtter · 07/07/2023 11:11

I like Moran's Friday column in the Times, in fact it's one of the reasons I subscribe. I also really liked "How To Be A Woman" and it was that book which made me engage with feminism, having been brought up with the idea that a feminist was not a good thing to be ("It's just angry women and you'll make yourself unattractive to men", to paraphrase Hmm )

But I don't see why it's on women to fix men. And if men started telling women how women should fix themselves, we'd - rightly - be up in arms.

MowingTheTerf · 07/07/2023 11:56

I wouldn't say "why is it up to women to tell men to behave", rather "Caitlin Moran needs to write a book for income, why has she decided on this subject, that would not go down well if it was a male writer telling women how to behave".

Farmageddon · 07/07/2023 12:14

MowingTheTerf · 07/07/2023 11:56

I wouldn't say "why is it up to women to tell men to behave", rather "Caitlin Moran needs to write a book for income, why has she decided on this subject, that would not go down well if it was a male writer telling women how to behave".

Agreed. I can imagine the backlash if a man wrote a book basically saying 'women, here is your problem and how to fix it'...

I never understood why CM gets such a free pass on things. She's fucking tedious.

Beowulfa · 07/07/2023 12:25

I wonder if she re-wrote her first book a fifth time and the publishers politely but firmly asked her for something new, so she provided the same thing but about men?

Robert Webb's How Not To Be A Boy is very good incidentally.

TheAntiGardener · 07/07/2023 13:13

When I was first exposed to feminism in the 90s there was one phrase that popped up time and again: patriarchy hurts men too.

For some reason, it doesn’t get much airtime these days but it has always resonated strongly with me. It’s the reason I don’t have much time for gotchas like the litany of ways in which men are worse off than women that Caitlin Moran was subjected to; many, if not most, items on that list relate to male behaviour or patriarchal expectations of men that men themselves buy into and many benefit from. They do not originate with women. It’s not for women to sort this out and I’m tired of reading about men’s problems, real as they undoubtedly are, as if women have some responsibility for them in the same way as male behaviour is responsible for much of what women and girls are subjected to.

TheAntiGardener · 07/07/2023 13:20

Posted before I meant to. Wanted to add that this has been known and understood for years. It’s not new. But men, far from accepting feminism, much less embracing it, continue to reject it. It’s almost as though they feel that on balance the current system is better than equality with women.

That being the case, I think feminists are much better off devoting their energies to women.

DontYouThreatenMeWithADeadFish · 07/07/2023 13:25

Kathleen Stocks review of the book,

Book Review

It’s a brave soul that dares offer advice to the opposite sex these days. Women authors tend to stick to listing men’s flaws so that female audiences can enjoy the resulting catharsis. Men are pretty much banned from making any generalisation about women, good or bad.

But Times columnist Caitlin Moran is bolder. With her new book, What About Men?, she goes where few women have gone before. Having noticed that young men seem to be in crisis, she now attempts to get inside the mind of the modern male in order to help him out.
Early signs suggest that it’s not going down brilliantly with the Other Side; even the Times reviewer has reservations. And the Twitter commentariat is enjoying posting outraged screenshots of excerpts. “Patronising”, “shallow” and “one-dimensional”, have been some of the verdicts from men so far.

I’ve read the book, and though the intentions behind it are admirable, I agree that it has problems. Moran apparently thinks not just that masculinity is wholly cultural, but that there’s only one version of it, entirely based on her husband, his mates, and some sons of her friends. Every bloke in the world likes rock music, wears disgustingly decrepit gym gear and won’t talk to his friends about fatherhood or relationships. Equally, she seems to think that all women are exactly like she is — dorky, warm, garrulous and funny. They dish out copious tea and sympathy, enjoy avid discussions of pop culture and bodily functions, and bond over how terrible the Seventies were.

She reduces the issue of whether any behavioural differences between the sexes are partly due to biological factors, to the straw man of whether there are “massive differences between male and female brains”, ignoring the potential influence of smaller brain differences, or of pre-natal and circulating sex hormones. (And this in a section where, two pages later, she observes without any apparent sense of tension that “girls develop their fine motor skills earlier than boys”.) She flat-out denies that there are “any major differences in the language skills of boys and girls”, ignoring swathes of evidence that suggest otherwise for early childhood. I’m not saying such questions are definitively settled in either direction, but it smacks of laziness to pretend they are.
She also takes a “creative” approach to explanations of behavioural difference, as exemplified by her Just-So story of how the male conversational style developed (that is: heavy on banter and technicality; light on in-depth analyses of the couples on Love Island). Boys start school at a disadvantage to girls because they can’t hold a pen. A catastrophic chain of developmental events then unfolds, according to our author. While girls race ahead with their communication skills, boys lose confidence, start reading comic books rather than Little Women or Anne of Green Gables, and take refuge for their lack of ability to understand the social world in jokes about gay people, and descriptions of the internal combustion engine. For the unreconstructed sexist who suspects that women should steer clear of scientific explanation, Moran’s approach here is unfortunately likely to serve as further confirmation.

And then there’s the relentlessly ribald writing style. I’ve never positively wished for sensitivity readers and trigger warnings before, but there’s a first time for everything. Demystifying sex for the reader is one thing; making him grimace so hard his face seizes up, another. If, as Moran seems to think, bedroom preferences are formed by exposure to certain scenarios early on in life, hers seem to have been shaped by reading too many Viz magazines. I came away from the book mostly thinking we need to Make Sex Sexy Again as a matter of national emergency.

For instance, on women (and I apologise in advance for this), “if we’re very ‘vocal’, and loud, during sex – ‘YES! YES!’ – it might be because we’re aware we’re doing fannyfarts, and don’t want you to hear the party vag-sounds that are happening ‘down there’”. Male ejaculation is “Nature’s splendid custard-y firework display”. Whereas men allegedly never discuss their genitalia, we women “tell each other, constantly, to rejoice in our minges” (we do what?). Moran recounts how she once spent a whole afternoon, stoned, talking to her husband’s testicles and “seeing how they reacted to my varying chats”. (Spoiler: they shrivelled). If this prose is really aimed at teenage boys as it sometimes pretends to be, let’s just say that the birth rate is not likely to improve anytime soon.

Other parts are more successful. She is right that young men increasingly struggle with body image issues, that most internet pornography is violent and soul-destroying, and that false whispers about sexual misdemeanours can ruin a young man’s life. She tries hard to be sympathetic about all this, as well as to the idea that young men are beset by images of “toxic masculinity” in a way that is messing them up. And there’s even the odd hint that prevalent feminist approaches might be part of the problem — including her own in previous books.

Post #MeToo, one legacy of mainstream feminism seems to be the policy of shouting at all men about how terrible they are, in the hope that some of the generalised opprobrium sticks to the right candidates. At the same time, men’s ordinary sexual impulses — sometimes irritating, sometimes welcome — are denigrated and treated as inevitably threatening and sinister.

No finer example can be found than in a National Rail poster campaign running at the moment, which thunders: “INTRUSIVE STARING OF A SEXUAL NATURE IS SEXUAL HARASSMENT AND IS NOT TOLERATED.” Everyone knows which biological sex this sinister pronouncement is aimed at (hint: it’s not the one batting her eyelashes furiously at you over her free newspaper).

The fallout from the new puritanism means that sensitive, empathic young men often feel terrible about any sexual behaviours not formally agreed with a partner in writing beforehand; while society continues to do nothing meaningful to stop the sort of hardened offenders unlikely to be influenced by poster campaigns in trains. Youthful coping strategies in response to all this undifferentiated guilt-tripping may include heading towards Andrew Tate videos or heading towards the gender clinic, but either way a different and more nuanced way of doing things would be a lot better.
And it would also be good if we could talk more about what is wonderful about masculinity, and toxic about femininity, without caveats or excuses. When, in the final chapter, Moran eventually gets round to the former, she makes a good stab at it — though, by her own admission, most of the things she thinks we value in men are also things we value in dogs. In fact, I would go further — they are things we value in elderly Labradors. The characteristics she celebrates — being loyal, hard-working, protective, and so on — are all very pro-social and unthreatening to women and children, and unlikely to set the imagination alight of any young man looking for his own hero’s journey.

That young males newly acquainted with massive amounts of testosterone should crave an exciting hero’s journey for themselves is another fact she tries to explain with a Just-So story about acculturation: they’ve read too many comic books about superheroes and “nothing about ordinary teenage boys, trying to learn how to become happy, normal men”. So there you have it — we can combat the allure of Andrew Tate and his ilk by enticing teenage boys to read more boring books. Speaking as a mother of sons who would consider reading comic books a chore when they could be destroying aliens onscreen instead, I’d like to know how she proposes we go about this.

Despite this chapter, throughout most of the earlier stuff, there’s still a barely suppressed sense that Team Woman — or as she has it, Team Tits — has most of the answers, and that members of Team Testicles might get there too if they try hard enough. At one point she suggests, with a characteristically liberal use of italics, that: “Everything that, culturally, is seen as ‘female’, is something anyone can have. These are all things anyone can learn. These are all things anyone can gain. Women weren’t born knowing how to be amazing friends having super-deep conversations about anxiety, and sorrow. Personally, I just learned how to do it from watching The Golden Girls.” Perhaps tellingly, though, there’s little suggestion in the book that women could learn from men about being more loyal or crying less.

Moran is right, of course, that women aren’t born knowing how to understand the complex emotional states of others, in order to be able to listen properly and console them. They need experience, and perhaps also guidance, to activate this capacity. Some women can’t do it at all, while many men can. Still, that doesn’t mean that, across the entire female population, the enhanced capacity of women to understand social relationships isn’t somewhat biologically influenced. To treat feminine traits as a study programme that any man could get up to speed on if he tried seems to be setting men up for failure — and they don’t need more of that.

In any case, perhaps I am female-atypical, but — inviting as it sounds — I couldn’t live in Moran’s smoke-filled, gin-soaked world of warm hugs, tear-stained confidences and frank conversations about bodily fluids for more than 10 minutes at a time. Sometimes, talking about your feelings makes them worse, and sometimes responding empathically to other people’s feelings only makes them more histrionic and attention-seeking. It can be very good to talk, but it can also be very good to shut the hell up and stamp off to dig the garden. As usual, the devil is in the detail. How to Be More Like a Man would be a bold title for any feminist writer, but I’m not sure we should entirely rule it out.

What About Men?

'A must-read eye-opener that makes you laugh, cry, get angry and get happy on every page. It's magnificent' Bob Mortimer 'Our greatest modern writer on women turns her eyes on men - and it's all good' David Baddiel As any feminist who talks about the...

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/447366/what-about-men-by-moran-caitlin/9781529149159

Lottapianos · 07/07/2023 14:09

LOVE Kathleen Stock and her brilliant writing. Her review make me feel weak with gratitude that she subjected herself to Moran's nonsense so that I don't have to. The descriptions of sex stuff in the book make me want to heave. I'm mortified for a nearly 50 year old woman who writes such shite

Does anyone else feel very uncomfortable watching Caitlin Moran being interviewed? I get such strong vibes of self-loathing, massive insecurity and desperation from her which are the opposite of how she tries to come across, which makes the whole performance even more odd. All the face-pulling too. It's exhausting and I find it a bit unsettling

DontYouThreatenMeWithADeadFish · 07/07/2023 14:13

Lottapianos · 07/07/2023 14:09

LOVE Kathleen Stock and her brilliant writing. Her review make me feel weak with gratitude that she subjected herself to Moran's nonsense so that I don't have to. The descriptions of sex stuff in the book make me want to heave. I'm mortified for a nearly 50 year old woman who writes such shite

Does anyone else feel very uncomfortable watching Caitlin Moran being interviewed? I get such strong vibes of self-loathing, massive insecurity and desperation from her which are the opposite of how she tries to come across, which makes the whole performance even more odd. All the face-pulling too. It's exhausting and I find it a bit unsettling

On her day she is an amusing writer but these days I struggle to get past the dress like a 90s teenager 'I'm crazy and whacky me (pull silly face)' act.

funnelfan · 07/07/2023 14:34

YY @Lottapianos , having read that review I no longer feel the need to read the book, which is a shame for Caitlin and her income stream.

I continue to think she’s an engaging writer - for me one of her best pieces was after Thatchers death she explained why so many people were “celebrating”. It was a sober piece without any of the italics or bants and very well done. I would gladly read more like that but then I suppose she’s made her niche as the “dorky, warm, garrulous and funny” one, and any move towards a more serious tone would put her into a more crowded arena alongside women like Hadley Freeman.

OP posts:
MowingTheTerf · 07/07/2023 14:49

I read Doc Stock's excellent review which raises much more pertinent points (such as the idea that boys are either driven towards Andrew Tate or a gender clinic in today's climate), and her insight into boys is much better because she is a mother to boys.

Lottapianos · 07/07/2023 15:01

'and her insight into boys is much better because she is a mother to boys.'

Her insight into boys is much better because she does her research, and takes a scientific approach, and doesn't just regurgitate 'hilarious' anecdotes with the odd bit of actual thinking thrown in

RealityFan · 09/07/2023 23:56

I see Caitlin is taking some cheap potshots at Jordan Peterson, calling him a "sad loner preacher man".

I'm no massive fan of JP, but I guarantee countless more men will get benefit from him than the superficial fluff offered up by CM.

Rudderneck · 10/07/2023 00:12

That review is hilarious. I could fall in love with KS.

Lentilweaver · 10/07/2023 06:54

Kathleen Stock is so right on the money. Totally agree with this. "Sometimes, talking about your feelings makes them worse, and sometimes responding empathically to other people’s feelings only makes them more histrionic and attention-seeking. It can be very good to talk, but it can also be very good to shut the hell up and stamp off to dig the garden."

RatatouilleAndFeta · 10/07/2023 07:07

Sausagenbacon · 01/07/2023 17:37

Maybe it's because I'm old, but I find her style really hard to get along with, it just seems disjointed.
There's also a chunk of me that's wondering how she feels entitled to make pronouncements to women about what they should be doing. What is she? I see nothing in her that makes me think her opinions of any value.
But mostly I don't want to hear anything from a woman who has ignored trans issues. It's a flipping big elephant in the room.

Totally.

RatatouilleAndFeta · 10/07/2023 07:10

On the whole though, I find the contrived 90s teenager-y persona extremely tiresome. And she has been totally shit on the gender critical front

@Lottapianos I think this perfectly encapsulates why she has always grated on my nerves!

RoyalCorgi · 10/07/2023 09:49

Lentilweaver · 10/07/2023 06:54

Kathleen Stock is so right on the money. Totally agree with this. "Sometimes, talking about your feelings makes them worse, and sometimes responding empathically to other people’s feelings only makes them more histrionic and attention-seeking. It can be very good to talk, but it can also be very good to shut the hell up and stamp off to dig the garden."

This was the quote that stood out for me too - she's perfectly right.

I also liked what she said about CM making generalisations about her own experience. In CM's world, all women talk endlessly about their boobs, their fannies, their periods etc, and she assumes that all other women do too.

WinterTrees · 10/07/2023 11:04

CM seems to suffer from an odd sort of arrested development, which is unusual for someone in the line of work she's in. She's roughly the same age as me, and I find it really strange that she doesn't appear to have adjusted her views or the way she interacts with the world at all since she first appeared on the scene in the late 90s/early 00s.

Most women I know (both friends and more public figures, and myself I guess) are modified, more mature versions of their 20-something selves. They (we!) have grown and adapted to changing times, new information, differing perspectives, increased life experience and the lessons learned from that. CM seems to have made a conscious decision to stay rigidly stuck in her original brand, which makes me think that she's more invested in being a novelty media 'personality' specialising in zany soundbites than a significant writer and journalist whose work is worth the investment of readers' time and money. Which is a shame, because she can be a brilliant writer.

I feel the direction she's chosen is symbolic of her deeper internalised misogyny. She has always loudly and proudly proclaimed her feminism, but at the same time seemed to cultivate that 'ladette' image of being mouthy and a match for the boys and 'up for it'. It seems to be a kind of feminism that speaks for women while keeping one eye on shocking or impressing the lads. I've always been uncomfortable with that, but now it's gone from being irritating to being faintly ridiculous and embarrassing.

We have stronger, surer female and feminist voices now - Hadley Freeman, Janice Turner, Victoria Smith, Kathleen Stock (and so many more.) I'm not sure there's a big female audience for Caitlin's 'look at me!' crazy-act sideshow anymore, and I don't think men are going to provide her with a new one.