Caitlin Moran article 1 Jul in Guardian

[funnelfan]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/01/caitlin-moran-whats-gone-wrong-for-men-and-the-thing-that-can-fix-them?

I’m still not sure how to respond to this. I love Caitlin's writing and I find it hard to disagree with anything she’s written here, so I’ll probably buy the book as I have most of her others.

However, however, one thing jumped out at me. Why is it up to women to tell men they must fix the terrible issues they have with homophobia, bullying, loneliness, suicide etc, and show them how to do it? There’s great groups out there like shed clubs etc that are trying to get the message out that “it’s ok to be not ok”. Isn’t it a bit patronising to be saying mean should be using the women’s examples of support as the way forward for men?

Of course women who are sisters, mothers, daughters, friends etc will always be concerned about their male loved ones in distress. But the overall theme of the article as I read it leans towards women being the default support-human in showing them the way and I’m uncomfortable with that. On the other hand, we also see what happens when men start campaigning for rights on their own and it isn’t very pretty.

so I’m not sure how to reconcile my thoughts at the moment. Interestingly, “trans” issues did not even get a sniff of a mention in the article, and I don’t know whether that’s because Caitlin seems to avoid the topic entirely anyway so it’s not in the book, or whether it’s because it’s the Guardian and what she wrote in the book may not fit with their current thinking.

I previously liked Caitlin Moran's main thing of 'are the men doing this too?' to work out if something was a feminist issue.

Agree her upbringing was interesting to a point, obviously cripplingly poor in a monetary sense but rich in cultural capital.

I'm interested in her new book and will be buying it to see what she says. I've heard a few men talk eloquently on similar subjects of raising our boys better and giving them credit for doing things differently to men from previous generations. I think there's a point somewhere in there and am interested in where she goes with it.

Agree she should say where she stands on trans issues. It's relevant when you're talking about men and women.

I liked How to be a Woman and Raised By Wolves, but Moran has no new material to draw from which makes her remotely relatable to ordinary people as she’s been a part of the London media bubble since her late teens. She’s an absolute lightweight when you compare her output to Hadley Freeman, for example.

Perhaps I am being unfair- after all I don't know her- but she seems to be the kind of person who describes themselves as "mad" or "free spirit" .

It must be difficult when you've made an entire 30 year career out of a particular style and set of experiences, and find that the well has run dry. Like others I enjoyed HTBAW but have not bothered with her since bar reading the odd fun but forgettable column over breakfast.

She's said what she thinks of trans issues though. For her, TWAW and it's in her books.

She totally lost me though when she wrote about her brother whining that nothing has been done for men in the last hundred years or something and how she agreed with him. Has she never heard of voting rights, labour laws, health and safety and so on?

I am not really very interested in men's problems, tbh. They can fend for themselves. Caitlin strikes me as a very third wave feminism types, and that's fine, but in most of the world, women are still fighting very basic battles. Well, even in the UK, really.

Moran is exactly that sort of person. I can't stand her, and never could. I very occasionally read her Times column and then vow never to do so again.

She has nothing to say but rehashes her inanities endlessly.

If these vaguely amusing style in their 20s and thus set for life somehow- columnists from the 90s had any intellectual curiosity it wouldn’t be hard to stay relevant. Read books, talk to people outside your bubble, be brave. Appreciate that’s a bit like hard work though

I think she is stuck, intellectually, in her mid-teens. She is clearly bright, but had no formal education. Of course, home-schooling, done properly, can be just as good as school, but she seems to have been left to drift with no supervision and no one to help her develop critical thinking. Then she got a job with Melody Maker, and was the bright young thing, with everyone flattering her, and no challenging her.

'She’s an absolute lightweight when you compare her output to Hadley Freeman, for example.

God yes. Chalk and cheese

I don’t see anything wrong with it. She’s made the point many times that she’s been concerned about women’s stuff because men should be concerned about men’s stuff.

What’s she’s saying here is not that women should fix men’s problems, or that men don’t overall still have huge advantages, but simply that there are some areas where our awareness of men’s and boys’ concerns lags behind our understanding of women’s and girls’.

Given the fact that men are still not doing 50% of home graft, work places are still run for men, and rape culture and misogyny being such a fucking worry, it’s not a bad time to look openly at what’s beneath that from all angles.

Obviously she needs to sell her next book, but it seems a useful topic. I’ll read it like I read Why I’m not talking to white people about race, because it showed me a different perspective to my own, and is a handy check on when my behaviour could be more helpful. It won’t change my fundamental priorities.

I don’t think she’s vastly interesting by the way, and agree she has limited tricks.

But she’s a popular columnist, I don’t expect her to be Marina Hyde, she can still have worthwhile things to say in her lane. And at her best (eg about her daughter’s eating disorder, or walking through a deserted lockdown london) she’s a really good writer.

Men need Caitlin Moran like a hole in the head. Stay in your lane Caitlin. We don't need men telling us how to woman and they do not need you.

Bit of disclosure and honesty here.

I'm a bloke. MH issues for 17 yrs now. I've been part of a mens talk charity for years and run my own business set around MH presentations and discussions.

Things are changing, slowly, for guys. They/ we are opening up and the subject matter of MH is becoming much more common.

BUT!

The stereotype that girls and women are much better at talking misses the point.

@75% of suicides are male. @25% female. We cannot, and I will not, allow that to be ignored.

Women struggle just as much. That's factual, and the seemingly endless charge(often click driven on social media) to talk about male MH risks edging female MH from the discussions.

Some of the so called leaders of mens MH campaigns do nothing more than trot out stolen quotes and memes, and knowingly take advantage of vulnerable people.

This is about society and about US. That really matters.

Here's an absolutely excoriating review of Caitlin's new book

www.newstatesman.com/culture/2023/07/has-caitlin-moran-met-man

it amused me

Gosh! That was brutal. And also, very funny. But feel a bit sorry for her, now.

Sorry but this made me laugh.

I think the first few paragraphs, where she says she assumed white men were all doing so well that it is ok to metaphorically beat up on them a bit, says it all.

Not very observant.

It's not an accurate review.

There are about five funny newspaper columnists in Britain today, and Moran is one of them

No she isn't.

in her 2011 memoir-polemic How to Be a Woman. Moran wrote a sizzler. It was funny

No she didn't and it isn't funny.

You're right of course @NatashaDancing. I did actually enjoy bits of How to be a woman but I don't think she's been funny for a very long time. Not read her column for years.

I found How to Be A Woman excruciating. I didn't finish it.

The reviews’ examples of the excruciating bit about tasting menstrual blood as being funny compared to the equally excruciating bit about banter is mystifying to me

I thought it seriously juvenile

CM is full on TWAW, she's posted about it on twitter and spoke about it in one of her books a couple years ago, I've not read anything by her since and won't. Liked her 20 years ago, she wrote one decent book, it was quite funny but she's not the brightest 🤷‍♀️