Teenager guilty of murder.

[placemats]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

Apart from the fact that she was raped, if consent to sex is to be a legal term, I find the prosecutions allegations appalling.

'But the prosecution alleged Mayo must have known she was pregnant but chose to deliberately conceal it because she was always planning to kill the baby.'

Perhaps Mayo didn't get early abortion help she needed. I know of one woman, who had 3 previous children, who didn't realise she was pregnant, thought it was early menopause until 4 weeks before her due date. However to allege she was always planning to kill the baby is a step too far. It intimates that those in authority know this child's mind.

They can't be seen to go easy on her or they will have other women opting to just kill the baby when it pops out instead of seeking an abortion.

yeah because that's what women will do if left to themselves - the murdering bitches. They'll go right through a pregnancy lah di dah and then kill the baby - when it "pops" out (btw I missed the bit about how to have a baby "pop itself out - can this be included in sex-ed?) because that is WAY easier than having an early abortion.

Even women hate women.

So no, we shouldn't be condoning someone killing their baby within an hour or two of it being born, no matter what the circumstances are.

even the Victorians were kinder than this.

Well, it did happen in this story. We've now gone from late term abortions and body autonomy to straight up defending infanticide/murder of a baby (as long as a woman does it).

who is defending it? I'm just pointing out that being merciful or even giving the ancient verdict of infanticide to a 15 year old won't actually encourage women to continue their pregnancies and then murder their babies as soon as they pop out.

I agree, but at the same time to have violently killed her newborn baby is inexcusable, surely

Whatever it's called, she killed the baby either way. Murder, infanticide - no difference. It doesn't change the reality of what happened.

If you kill a newborn, you need to be convicted. Anyone proclaiming otherwise is defending this.

Again, pointing out that women are unlikely to continue pregnancies because they can get away with murdering their infants is not excusing anything.

And there is a big difference in law between infanticide and murder. As there is between manslaughter and murder. Those distinctions exist for a reason.

Yes maybe she needs help but a suitable jail term first please.

However to allege she was always planning to kill the baby is a step too far. It intimates that those in authority know this child's mind.

I agree it is a step too far. What a ridiculous assumption. I certainly know the feeling of blanking out in a panic and just refusing to think until circumstances force some blind action at the last moment.

I was pregnant at 15, luckily not from rape.
I would never have harmed my baby.
However disturbed she was it's just unthinkable what she did.
She could have abandoned him or called for help.
Poor little baby.
It's right that she's been convicted.

Agree with this.
Reading what she did to that baby was shocking.
Unthinkable

Well, and post partum psychosis is a thing, too.

Infanticide is murder, like fratricide, matricide etc.

How could any jury could be sure without reasonable doubt that a 15 year old, who had just had a baby alone after concealing or not knowing about it for 9 months, and killed it, was not suffering from diminished responsibility?

How was it her mother never knew she was about to have an 8lb baby I wonder?

To the poster who said it was a post-mortem that had detected the baby had cried, I don’t think a post-mortem could know that.

There seems to be a lot unexplained here.
Who was the father, how old was he and what was the relationship?

What was her relationship with her parents?

Infanticide is treated differently from murder:

'The law in England and Wales gives prosecutors and the courts the opportunity to show further compassion to mothers who kill their infant child when the balance of their mind is disturbed.
The Infanticide Act (1938) provides prosecutors with an alternative to a charge of murder where a mother has killed her child before the age of 12 months.'

https://www.britishjournalofmidwifery.com/content/legal/dealing-with-incidents-of-feticide-and-infanticide-in-england-and-wales/

From that same article:

'The 1938 Act, section 1 (1) provides that:
‘Where a woman by any wilful act or omission causes the death of her child being a child under the age of 12 months, but at the time of the act or omission the balance of her mind was disturbed by reason of her not having fully recovered from the effect of giving birth to the child or by reason of the effect of lactation consequent upon the birth of the child, then, notwithstanding that the circumstances were such that but for this Act the offence would have amounted to murder, she shall be guilty of felony, to wit of infanticide, and may for such offence be dealt with and punished as if she had been guilty of the offence of manslaughter of the child.’
Infanticide may also be used as a fall back offence where a woman, initially charged with murder, is found not guilty by the jury who then return a verdict of infanticide instead.
In response to a recent freedom of information request, the Crown Prosecution Service do not use infanticide as an alternative offence. In all six cases where women were found guilty of infanticide or attempted infanticide they were initially charged with murder and left to the jury to decide if infanticide occurred (Crown Prosecution Service, 2014).
A verdict of infanticide allows the court to deal with the case as if the woman had been guilty of manslaughter. This gives the courts a wider range of sentencing options than the mandatory life sentence imposed for murder. In practice, a custodial sentence is rare. In R v Sainsbury (1990), a 17-year-old woman pleaded guilty to infanticide. She had become pregnant at 14 and had not told anyone. She had given birth unaided in a bathroom and taken the baby, wrapped it in a blanket and placed it in a river. The judge sentencing her said that he accepted that she was very immature and greatly disturbed by the effect of giving birth, but said that her responsibility was not removed altogether so sentenced her to 12 months' detention in a young offenders' institution.'

Just tragic all round. Words fail me in imagining this whole scenario.

No, infanticide is a particular crime in British law. It exists to distinguish the crime from the crime of murder. It is not the same as fratricide or matricide which are non-legal terms to describe particular murders/manslaughters.

Grammarnut · Today 23:37

ChirpyChirpyCheepCheepBeep · Today 13:49

Surely this is infanticide not murder?

Infanticide is murder, like fratricide, matricide etc.

No, legally ‘Infanticide’ it is different from ‘Murder’.

What is the legal definition of infanticide in the UK?

What is meant by infanticide? Under the criminal law of England and Wales, infanticide is both an offence in its own right and a partial defence to the charge of murder. Only a biological mother who kills her own child within 12 months of the birth can be charged with infanticide or rely on it as a defence.
www.claims.co.uk › infantici...
Infanticide and the Criminal Law - claims.co.uk

That's very moving and honest of you. My grandmother tried the "jumping off the kitchen table" stuff when she discovered that she was pregnant with my mum (mum's siblings were 16, 15, and 8 at the time). Mum is now 87 - I can't imagine how she felt when her own mother told her about how she had reacted to being pregnant with her!

I wouldn’t take this as evidence of women thinking anything. It’s just a mad take from a weirdo, unpleasant but not representative.

Absolutely this ^

💕

@Ujustcantandwont thank you so much for sharing this. Your bravery in doing so has made me cry. It is hard for people to accept ugly, terrible feelings and makes them quick to judge. I hope your story has taught people a little empathy.

❤for your younger self

If the baby had never breathed, the lungs would have been full of fluid. If the baby had breathed, the lungs would have been full of air. If the postmortem is performed promptly (before putrefaction causes gas production) I understand that they can indeed tell the difference.