Teenager guilty of murder.

[placemats]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/teenager-guilty-baby-herefordshire-hide-pregnancy-paris-mayo

Apart from the fact that she was raped, if consent to sex is to be a legal term, I find the prosecutions allegations appalling.

'But the prosecution alleged Mayo must have known she was pregnant but chose to deliberately conceal it because she was always planning to kill the baby.'

Perhaps Mayo didn't get early abortion help she needed. I know of one woman, who had 3 previous children, who didn't realise she was pregnant, thought it was early menopause until 4 weeks before her due date. However to allege she was always planning to kill the baby is a step too far. It intimates that those in authority know this child's mind.

BMustard · Today 12:02
Expect the judge, obviously. But it just shows how outrageous that line of thinking is, that young people can't be criminally responsible. Whether rape of killing of an infant, the punishment needs to fit the crime.
@BMustard
Please would you describe the crime “Infanticide” and find some examples from life?

It is a crime.

To the poster talking about being fair to teenage boys doing the same thing: A teenage boy killing a newborn is not awash with hormones after just giving birth and carrying a pregnancy for 9 months which he's been constantly afraid of people finding out about.
Apples and oranges.

So,
I don’t think we know if she was raped, underage sex with someone also underage is exempt from the rape law and I haven’t seen anything as to who the baby’s father was or how old he is? Presumably it’s not her dad because he was at deaths door.

I do think murder is too harsh, it should be infanticide. I don’t agree with the court that she had a loving and supportive family who would have helped her- if they were that then she would not have concealed the pregnancy or panicked when the baby was born. If her mum cared about her, she would have noticed that she was pregnant for one. I think she was very much a neglected and unloved child left to fend for herself from an early age because mum was focussed on caring for her ill dad.

It should be infanticide and she should not have been tried as an adult.

I think the hormonal defence is weak and plays to females as victims, a narrative that serves no one well.

Young men are also massively hormonally driven and it is a fact that the violent offender prison population:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/019188699400177T

All animals (including man) are hormonally driven and this applies to both sexes.

Oh don't talk shit, most teenage girls don't brutally murder children.

@Newbutoldfather
I agree the hormonal defence is weak, especially since research has debunked the old hypothesis that post birth hormones cause post partum depression and/or post partum psychosis.

This article has more information about the girl’s father. The family obviously had difficulties, with the father at the heart of them for various reasons.

Under cross-examination from Mayo's barrister Bernard Richmond KC, Mr Mayo was asked about the character of his and his sister's late father, Patrick Mayo.

The siblings father had a number of health ailments including 'heart problems, diabetes and kidney failure' for which he was having home-based dialysis, upstairs, with the aid of their mother, at the time Mayo was giving birth.

Mr Mayo died just days after the incident, the barrister told court.

Mr Richmond asked Mr Mayo: 'He was not an easy person, was he?'
'No,' replied Mr Mayo.

Mr Richmond then asked: 'One of the things he was, was very controlling?'
'He could be at times, he was fair but old-fashioned,' Mayo's brother replied.

Mayo's barrister then asked: 'I know it is very hard to speak ill of your dad, but as he became more ill, he became more frustrated, and his temper became shorter.

'Although not someone who used his fists, he could be horribly cruel with words - and with attitude?'

’He could, yes,' replied Mr Mayo.
Asked if there was 'pressure' on himself and Paris 'to help as much as you could', around the house, while their mother was caring for their father, Mr Mayo replied 'yes'.

Mr Richmond then asked about an occasion when Paris had been needed to help out with dialysis, 'but Paris couldn't deal with it and he (her father) told her she was useless and wasn't his daughter anymore?'

Mr Mayo replied: 'I don't remember.'
He agreed with Mr Richmond's words that 'treading on eggshells' around their father

In the immediate aftermath of the discovery of Mayo's lifeless newborn in a bin bag, Mr Mayo agreed his mother was 'hysterical', and his sister was crying and upset.

Meanwhile, Mr Mayo was 'in limbo, I didn't know what to or do, I sat there with dad and just sat in silence'.

'The only thing he said was he asked me what was going on, I told him, and he didn't say anything, just nodded his head,' he added.

Mr Richmond asked: 'He sat there, stony-faced? Emotionless?'

’Yes,' replied Mr Mayo, adding: 'So was I.'

Mr Richmond then asked: 'In fact your dad did say one thing - he insisted the baby was given a name - not only given a name - it had to be the name Stanley.

So whatever else was going on, your dad's ‘contribution was the baby got to be called Stanley.'

'Yes,' replied Mr Mayo.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12085487/Brother-schoolgirl-15-murdered-newborn-feeling-wasnt-right.html

And most 15 year olds don't ever display such a level of violence towards defenceless creatures.

AP5Diva · Today 12:35
@Newbutoldfather
I agree the hormonal defence is weak, especially since research has debunked the old hypothesis that post birth hormones cause post partum depression and/or post partum psychosis.

@AP5Diva

please will you post those peer reviewed articles about how post birth hormones don’t cause post-partum depression?

and please will you post some articles about the traumas of giving birth and the effects on the mind of a mother regardless of whether it was hormones or other physiological or social factors which caused them?

AllOfThemWitches · Today 12:41
And most 15 year olds don't ever display such a level of violence towards defenceless creatures.

@AllOfThemWitches
Please would you describe the crime of Infanticide and find some examples?

Why don't you just say where you're attempting to go with this?

*We all know that @BMustard @anyolddinosaur and @AllOfThemWitches have declared themselves to be not at all sympathetic to teenage girls once they 'mature' enough and that they should all know better.

You are all devoid of any sympathy and empathy and have clearly missed out on life. Obsessed and sad all of you.*

@placemats how dare you. Read my initial post. I was I a pregnant teenager at 16 through rape. I had nobody to turn to. I know the feeling of desperation. As we speak now, I'm not even close to 30 yet- it's fairly recent too.

I am not 'devoid of empathy'. I HAVE been in this situation and I can tell you, it's not an excuse for murder.

But well done you. If it makes you feel better to attack posters who disagree with you, then knock yourself out.

@ScrollingLeaves
It’s established scientific fact as in in the textbooks that hormones don’t cause PPD (PND in U.K.).

NHS lists hormones as a “myth”
https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-natal-depression/overview/
Myths about postnatal depression
Postnatal depression is often misunderstood and there are many myths surrounding it.
These include:

• postnatal depression is less severe than other types of depression – in fact, it's as serious as other types of depression
• postnatal depression is entirely caused by hormonal changes – it's actually caused by many different factors
• postnatal depression will soon pass – unlike the "baby blues", postnatal depression can persist for months if left untreated and in a minority of cases it can become a long-term problem
• postnatal depression only affects women – research has actually found that up to 1 in 10 new fathers become depressed after having a baby

These factors are equally true of antenatal depression.

And for post partum psychosis:
”Causes
We're not sure what causes postpartum psychosis, but you're more at risk if you:
already have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder or schizophrenia
have a family history of mental health illness, particularly postpartum psychosis (even if you have no history of mental illness)
developed postpartum psychosis after a previous pregnancy”

As for your second request, sorry I’m short on time. If you’d like to post anything about PTSD from birth trauma, be my guest.

AP5Diva · Today 12:49

Thanks very much for taking the time to answer. What you posted from the NHS includeds those helpful bullet points and does answer what I was wondering.

Hormones are one of many causes, but not the only ones. No one is precisely sure of all the other factors but

but you're more at risk if you:
already have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder or schizophrenia

have a family history of mental health illness, particularly postpartum psychosis (even if you have no history of mental illness)

developed postpartum psychosis after a previous pregnancy

And no one is saying @BMustard this case is an 'excuse for murder'. That's you thinking that.

My god, you are vile op. I've reported your post. Totally uncalled for. You should be ashamed.

I've not said anything that warrants that kind of personal attack. @placemats

I guess you don't really care about vulnerable teen girls after all. Shocker.

15 clearly is a child, both as a matter of law and as fact. The brain is not fully mature until 25. That doesn’t mean you don’t know right from wrong; it does mean you don’t have maturity or decision making capacity of someone who is fully adult.

You are not a vulnerable teenage girl though, you are an adult.

You are very judgemental.

No one is excusing what Mayo did. The reason for starting this thread was that she should not have been tried for murder. It should have been infanticide.

Report away.

So if I understand the legal position correctly (based on previous posts):

• CPS never charge with infanticide, only murder.
• it is then up to the jury to decide on a verdict of infanticide or murder
• Mayo would have had the option of pleading guilty to infanticide, but didn’t

If that is all correct, I can’t understand why she wouldn’t have pleaded guilty to infanticide? Did she dispute that he was alive at the point of birth? I would have thought a guilty plea would have made the jury more like to consider this verdict.

I do feel for the jurors - the details of the case must be horrific and it must be quite an ordeal to debate them for nearly nine hours.

I have been respectful throughout with a different opinion. A totally moderate and normal one, at that.

Yes, I'm an adult, as stated, only just approaching mid 20s. Just like anti-choicers, you don't care about the child once they grow up.

Nasty for the sake of it. Why? What's up with you?

The charge of infanticide was left to the jury. They, having heard all the evidence, which we have not, convicted her of the more serious offence. Unless they were misdirected (and if they were that will form the basis of an appeal) should that not be the end of the matter?

So at 15 you wouldn’t have felt it abhorrent to kill? We all know the brain doesn’t fully mature until 25. So anything done before that age should be excused?
That is absolutely no excuse.

The male may also have been under the age of consent, we don’t know. Is he a child too? Did she rape him, if they were both under the age of consent?

She killed a baby.